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Don't Fly During Ramadan

varnull.adityamukerjee.net

581–590 of 986 posts

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course the same thing happens with explosion detectors, where initially it picked up many similar compounds, and eventually started getting much more discrete, and the probability that it actually caught something of significance went from "not really" to "might actually be something real". Unless you've got some hard data on false positives, I don't believe it for a minute. As far as I can tell the equipment's…

I don't have hard data (the actual details are often considered confidential), but for the marketing claims of the various makers who all trumpet greater selectivity and the rejection of false positives. Which makes sense, as security is a huge, incredibly competitive industry, and these people are all competing for the world's paranoia dollars. Because the TSA gained nothing wasting their time on this. There are the…

> I don't have hard data (the actual details are often considered confidential), but for the marketing claims of the various makers who all trumpet greater selectivity and the rejection of false positives. Which makes sense, as security is a huge, incredibly competitive industry, and these people are all competing for the world's paranoia dollars.

Putting aside the merit of the idea of that the government bidding process ends with purchase of the best product, it's worth noting that just like with the government agents, the manufacturer isn't actually liable to anyone who suffers when its machines produce a false positive. Insofar as the manufacturer has any incentive to improve in this regard, its incentive comes from the same people who are putting on this security theater.

> Because the TSA gained nothing wasting their time on this. [blah blah] What did the TSA, NYPD, FBI, and whoever else gain from this giant waste of time?

Not sure why you threw this in here but it's so wrong that it's kind of hard to know where to begin. First, the superficial and obvious: TSA and NYPD are paid overtime. They had MONEY to gain from this exercise. Their financial incentives are exactly opposed to those of the person they are detaining.

Less superficial, perhaps equally obvious: a bureaucracy does stuff because that's the stuff the bureaucracy does. It's a big, mindless machine whose prime directive is to continue to exist. Everyone understands that they need to be seen to be DOING SOMETHING, and there are plenty of true believers who think doing that something is the most important thing in the world. That's the reason for some much of the crud we deal with now.

You might have made the mistake of thinking we're dealing with fully rational actors here. Congratulations if you've never worked for a bureaucracy and you don't get any of this.

> Something triggered on a molecule or taggant that they couldn't easily exclude, so they tried to help him assist them in excluding it. He couldn't, so they had to exhaust all avenues.

Orwell would be proud.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#582
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once they've determined he isn't carrying actual explosives he shouldn't be considered a threat anymore. The detection machine might single you out for additional searching, but once the search is complete you should be free to go.

> Once they've determined he isn't carrying actual explosives he shouldn't be considered a threat anymore. // Because people who handle explosives and cover it up when questioned, and aren't involved in handling explosives in their day job, are completely to be trusted? Surely once they've determined he isn't carrying explosives they need to be sure as possible, if he claims not to have been around any explosives, th…

I didn't say anything about trust. What I meant was he wasn't a threat to that particular flight. If the aim of the TSA is to keep a plane from blowing up, they've already accomplished it. Anything beyond that is just a fishing expedition. Given that they know their tests will detect compounds that aren't explosives this seems over the top.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they get false positives all the time. I am a white male that routinely opts-out of the scanners. I've had many many pat downs. One time my bag registered a false positive and I was also subjected to the "enhanced pat-down". My experience was totally different from OP's. The TSA officers went out of their way to reassure me that false positives are not uncommon, that there was nothing to be afraid of, etc etc…

The machines are not binary. They trigger specific materials. Some are going to be much more common than others, and like every process where they have false positives they react differently based upon their incidence rate.

Like ... as common as over the counter bedbug spray?

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things have changed since 9/11. Explosives have gotten smaller and more stable. And nobody checks bags anymore, because it's cheaper to carry them on. So now you have to do the same screening you did before, but in "real time" and looking for something smaller. 9/11 did cause a lot of hysteria, but the risk profile has also changed since then. (Also, if you get TSA Pre, the security standards become essentially what…

First of all: We can agree to disagree and stop this, I guess? At least for me, this will be my last post here. You're a name that comes up a lot here, and frankly I don't want to start a "That's insane" discussion with one of the top HN contributors. I've got no idea what's going on in you to defend that process, I'm certainly surprised to see your "It is necessary" comments in this thread, but .. I guess I leave th…

> this pro-terrorism scheme

Care to elaborate?

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Security guys" should be fucking competent or they shouldn't be "security guys" at all. I'd say the same of Java programmers, but we know that's not true, and Java coders get much better salaries. > And "behavioural red flag?" Are you shitting me? In Britain for many years the main security measure at Heathrow was for security people to simply interview passengers on check in and ask them about their bags, where t…

In Britain for many years the main security measure at Heathrow was for security people to simply interview passengers on check in and ask them about their bags, where they were traveling, etc. -- the main purpose was to look for behavioral cues and not so much obtain answers to the questions. I believe this is one of the things TSA officers are supposed to receive training in. I took the earlier post as referring to…

> Not so much.

Then you have a very low bar for terrorism.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure whether you're arguing the state was "oppressive" because it had the temerity to put in place a policy of investigating people that set off explosive detectors, or because they weren't competent enough to establish his innocence within minutes, but I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on both counts Minimal security theatre isn't oppression, and neither is bungling for five hours. Let's put things…

Just because things are not as bad as they are in Syria or Egypt, doesn't mean we should not be seriously troubled by the conduct of our government. We should not have to wait until citizens are getting murdered in the streets by our government before we get concerned.

True, but I'd put "temporarily detains person who argues with security after setting off explosive detectors in airport" near the bottom of the list of reasons to be concerned, a long way below issues like "has death sentence" or even "has schoolchildren pledge their allegiance to the flag every day"

It's not even like there isn't a reason for increased security at US airports in the last 15 years.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, FUCK the TSA. Those assholes are the terrorists as far as I'm concerned. That one comment just undermined 100% of any credibility I had placed in the remainder of your comments in this thread.

That one comment just undermined 100% of any credibility I had placed in the remainder of your comments in this thread. I'm sorry you feel that way. We probably have some fundamental differences in our worldviews and fundamental principles. Nonetheless, I respect your opinion, even if it makes me sad.

Right, I think it's that last sentence that bothers me too. Up to that point I pretty much agree with you (despite the fact you were responding so rudely to what I said). The TSA are a bunch of not very smart people doing a stupid, boring, ineffective job, but they aren't terrorists.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Anyway, I look at this like the lottery, but in reverse. Sometimes you lose the reverse lottery and a day of your life gets fucked up. But ultimately, life moves on and you have an interesting story. You can say that the government is an oppressive regime that is out to get you for your political views, or you can say you rolled the dice and lost. The view you have expressed here demonstrates that you have literall…

> It is not a "lottery" when the TSA and their goons are profiling people based on race In this story, they were profiling based on the fact that the person set off explosive detectors. Repeatedly. The fact that he was later questioned by tactless people making veiled racial hints doesn't change the fact that he wasn't racially profiled. A Caucasian would have been detained just the same.

> "set off explosive detectors. Repeatedly."

If I walk back and forth through a metal detector with a belt buckle multiple times, do I become increasingly suspicious each time it beeps?

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#590
post #563
post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a lawyer, but this is how I understand it: Hypothetically if they had issued a FISA warrant to the landlord, then the landlord could have let them search the apartment and additionally would not be legally allowed to inform his tenet that a warrant had been issued [1], must less that his apartment had been searched. 1. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1861 see part (d) "Nondisclosure"

Would any other measure than a FISA warrant allow for a search of an apartment without notifying the owner and/or tenants?

I'm not a lawyer but I know if you rent an apartment, there are cases when your landlord can let the police into your apartment without a warrant.
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