I get the feeling that we need public defenders in all airports and at borders. The complete lack of an adversarial process there is downright dangerous.
Don't Fly During Ramadan
341–350 of 986 posts
Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan
#342It is a terrible ordeal, but for all of the other factors brought up the critical factor is that he set off an explosion detector (and clearly it doesn't get false positives often given the response they showed). Everything else (about Ramadan, being Hindi, the color of one's skin, etc) may be nothing more than decorations, and no one here knows what would happen if John Smith Anglosaxon set off the same detector in…
My mother recently came to the US and set off an explosive detector. It took her just a few minutes to get cleared and she was not at all harassed like the author of the post was. Although she comes from Brazil, she is white, blonde and blue-eyed (a descendent of German immigrants). So I guess there is a difference in treatment according to race.
What set off the explosives detector? She had no idea, as that had never happened before to her. The only different thing she had touched hours before was the wipes they gave her during the flight to clean her hands before a meal.
Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan
#343Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you set off a gas chromatograph for nitroglycerine and then say you have heart tablets then you'll be fine. He obviously set off a specific trigger AND couldn't account for it (although they clearly tried to get him to). Back in the 70s or 80s a group of friends in Britain were sentenced for participating in a terrorist act because they set off an explosive test. They spent years in prison before it was determined…
Too bad they couldn't even tell him what set it off, since he clearly did not remember: "I can’t think of anything. What does it say is triggering the alarm?" I asked. "I’m not going to tell you! It’s right here on my sheet, but I don’t have to tell you what it is!" he exclaimed, pointing at his clipboard. ''EDIT: formatting''
Not letting him drink water or whatever is simply inhumane. Not giving him information is simply a judgment call or policy decision. Perhaps it is against policy to reveal which exact molecules their machines react to.
Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan
#344Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are missing the point. yes he set off the explosion detector for which he should have been questioned and he was. The issue is how they did it. No water for hours ? You seriously think that it is ok ? The rest 5% decorations that you were talking about is lot more than just decorations.
The bit that got me as incontrovertibly hilariously-stupid was... they got all upset that he hadn't identified to them that he'd checked some baggage. If the guy is an adversary, you can't rely on him to bring that fact to your attention. If the guy isn't an adversary, his failure to identify it is (by definition) innocent in nature. In neither sense does harassing the guy about it make sense.
You think that was a stupid mistake? Probably a deliberate documented procedure: throw the person off-balance with some unexpected "stupid" weirdness.
"You told the border guard you're entering the country to work." "What? No! I never said that! I'm entering to marry my fiancé!"
"I'm here because of the MBA conference." "NBA? We didn't know there was a basketball event in this building."
Yeah, I've seen it a number of times.
They weren't upset. They were manipulating the author. They weren't stupid. They already had agents heading to the apartment to investigate.
Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan
#345Earlier quoted context omitted.
Apparently this sophisticated new AI still fails the Turing Test... for now.
I actually tried turing testing chatbots a while ago (chatterbot, jabberwacky, etc.) to see if they've improved. No, they don't pass even remotely, and they all get very offended when you suggest they've failed (Chatterbot quote "Are you insulting me?"). Chatbots have a terrible temper.
Agreed. I tried having a conversation with Chatterbot, I asked it a question and it replied "Do you listen to the sounds", then I said what sounds and it replied "I am not a guy". Chatterbot basically spouts random responses its gotten, from a database.
Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan
#346I get the feeling that we need public defenders in all airports and at borders. The complete lack of an adversarial process there is downright dangerous.
I can't decide whether I love or hate the idea of this generation's "amublance chasers" being the "airport security line chasers".
Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan
#347Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is no button labeled "Fuck the 4th Amendment" but a clever technician might know how to manipulate the results, if needed. But why would they need to? They could just lie.
The bigger question is why would they? To waste their own time?
No, because sometimes they need a plausible excuse to act on other suspicions.
When working security, agents can sense something is wrong but not have it articulable enough in legal terms to act on. When the suspect says "why are you searching me?" it's a lot easier on everyone to say "the detector beeped, you heard it" than "I've got an uneasy feeling about you". (Not legal, not warranted, just easier.)
Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan
#348I was reading that whole story waiting for a punchline. He repeatedly set off the explosives sniffer while trying to go through airport security, and speculates that someone searched his place while he was away.
And?
I'd imagine that repeatedly setting off a bomb detector would be probable cause for a warrant to search his place. I'm not sure what the "is" is here, other than it's a major hassle caused by a screening machine throwing a false positive, which machines inevitably do.
Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan
#349Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think this is that oppressive. He went through security and set off an explosives detector. The cops showed up and asked some questions. Then he left. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say the government can't hamfistedly accuse you of a crime. All it says is that they have to charge you or let you go in 24 hours, give you a trial, and punish you in a consistent way. They did that here; they asked some ques…
Well, considering that red teams are routinely able to smuggle weapons and simulated explosive devices on aircraft fairly routinely, the current procedures are shit. Security theater at its finest. And you can't detain someone without reasonable suspicion which gives you the authority to investigate whether a crime has occurred. This detention can't be indefinite, and can't even come close to lasting 24 hours. Once y…
Can you cite sources for either of the two claims you made here? I'm genuinely curious.
Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan
#350Do not try to talk your way out of anything. And you do NOT have to and should not answer any questions from law enforcement or the TSA. Ask repeatedly: Am I being detained? Am I free to go? Cops can ask for ID (which you do have to provide, sadly) and can briefly frisk you to look for weapons -- if they have reasonable suspicion to believe a crime has or is about to happen. One other thing of note and what makes thi…
Just a correction, OP wasn't detained for 18 hours. He hadn't eaten anything in 18 hours.