The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist • Hacker News Board

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#61

Post by Tichy » Mon, May 25, 2009, 4:37 PM UTC

likpok wrote: post #32

_cbsz wrote: post #12

What is the goal of this checklist, other than causing a series of individual guilt trips for a gender imbalance that results from societal factors and/or legitimate gender predispositions for/against our field? What are we supposed to do ? Do these people think we don't wish there were more women in the field? Also, I'm sure the ensuing discussion is going to resemble at least three other HN discussions.

So, if you pay attention to history, you can see that there isn't actually a predisposition which affects this. In the 1980's, about half[1] of computer scientists were women. Now? 10-20%. Something is being done, and it is being done wrong. So it's not as simple as "They don't want to" or "Society makes them". [1] I believe it to be about half. However, it might be slightly more or less. Definitely far higher than t…

It could still be "they don't want to" - conditions in society might have chanced so that other options have become more attractive for women.

Wasn't 1980 still a completely different time, when it was more typical for women to stay at home? In that case, it would be even more surprising if there was parity back then.

I had the impression that a lot of women from Russia tended to be into technical careers, I wonder what was behind that. "Better" childcare (as in children being raised by the state)?

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#62

Post by knowtheory » Mon, May 25, 2009, 5:00 PM UTC

Some of the things that have been added to the list since it was posted to HN are actually obnoxious:

Laughing at jokes like this (http://codetojoy.blogspot.com/2007/08/closures-are-hot.html) because women holding bumper stickers about closures is funny in the same way pictures of cats "reading" calculus books is funny, rather than wondering whether your colleagues see you in the same way as those women.

I do think the Code To Joy thing is funny. Why? Because the discussion about closures in java (so far as i am aware) has left the realm of technical discussion, and now is just gridlocked. The opinion on closures of women at bars (however well informed), at this point is just as relevant to me as other discussions on the pros and cons of including closures.

It's not funny because girls are stupid, or because being hot precludes one's knowledge of pros and cons of closures. I would not expect random strangers at bars (be they male or female) to have an informed opinion about closures in java. The fact that Code To Joy picked only pictures of women to post may be sexist in the sense that they show a bias, but i don't think that the joke is demeaning to women.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#63

Post by tim_chevalier » Mon, May 25, 2009, 5:02 PM UTC

nopassrecover wrote: post #19

"Not having to explain why the term "gentlemen" doesn't include you. " - So no "Hi gentleman", fair enough "# Listening to speakers refer to an inanimate software construct as "this guy" without getting distracted. " - So no "Hi guys", fair enough "Not being the special case ("hi guys and girls, I guess, too, if you want to get really technical about it!!") " - So no "Hi guys and girls", err..

The second point was meant to be about inanimate software constructs: for example, "This guy jumps to that guy without pushing a new stack frame."

The difference between "hi guys and girls" and "hi guys and girls, I guess, too, if you want to get really technical about it!!" is that the second sentence goes out of its way to call attention to the Other-ness of the marginalized group. But why not circumvent the issue entirely and use a gender-neutral term like "folks", "everyone", or (depending on the formality of the occasion) "distinguished colleagues"? It perplexes me that people who have no trouble writing a compiler or debugging device drivers apparently find it so difficult to phrase a simple sentence in a way that doesn't exclude anyone.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#64

Post by knowtheory » Mon, May 25, 2009, 5:13 PM UTC

ahoyhere wrote: post #40

I find this kind of thing absolutely nauseating, divisive, and thoroughly unhelpful. I'm sure it makes you feel good, Mr Ultra Feminist, but you're not advancing "your" cause whatsoever by trying to guilt people - and with such weak, whiny examples, too. You just make women look weak and whiny. (And, by extension, yourself, since you're not even a woman.) That's unproductive and leads to - guess what! - women being n…

Amy, i think you're off base here.

You (and many others) are making an assertion about the intent of the list. Why do you assume that this is guilt tripping? Are they calling out this behavior to blame someone? Why isn't the assumption simply that they want particular behavior to cease, regardless of what the cause is?

So i want one of two things for people accusing this of being a pointless exercise in flagellation.

1) If there are valid issues in the list that should be addressed (and i would assert that there are), how should the information be communicated in a way that doesn't raise hackles (but still gets the point across).

2) If you don't think that the contents of this list should be raise, how does one raise and preserve awareness of the gender disparity in the programming world, and that there are problems that arise because of it (at least with some segment of our community)?

Additionally, there are other sardonic lists of things particular programmers hate (that questionably characterize their subject matter). Why is this one causing everyone to get their mad on?

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#65

Post by stavrianos » Mon, May 25, 2009, 5:59 PM UTC

msluyter wrote: post #48

j_baker wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd just like to point out that I also am a man and I don't have your problem. I have the capability of keeping my professional work environment professional .

I don't think the parent necessarily implied that he couldn't be professional. Rather, perhaps, it requires some conscious attention to avoid oogling or whatnot. I applaud the honesty, myself.

thanks, eh. I think I fumbled the wording on that one.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#66

Post by _cbsz » Mon, May 25, 2009, 7:05 PM UTC

knowtheory wrote: post #31

_cbsz wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why aren't we trying to get analytical individuals from other fields who already do train their students to think analytically? Probably because trainability of those folks would cause more "anyone can do it" sentiment, devaluing our skills. As to the pipeline, now you're calling for outright altruistic activism, not a change in day-to-day behavior at work. Also, if I set out to "encourage women in computer science",…

"now you're calling for outright altruistic activism, not a change in day-to-day behavior at work" That makes me want to facepalm a bit. Do you work with open source software? Also, if I set out to "encourage women in computer science", it would probably be perceived as "creepy". Then don't. Set out to encourage students who are good at analytical thinking to get into programming, and keep an eye on equal promotion o…

That makes me want to facepalm a bit. Do you work with open source software?

Yes, but for ego boost and/or personal bugfix reasons.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#67

Post by ahoyhere » Mon, May 25, 2009, 9:00 PM UTC

knowtheory wrote: post #64

ahoyhere wrote: post #40

I find this kind of thing absolutely nauseating, divisive, and thoroughly unhelpful. I'm sure it makes you feel good, Mr Ultra Feminist, but you're not advancing "your" cause whatsoever by trying to guilt people - and with such weak, whiny examples, too. You just make women look weak and whiny. (And, by extension, yourself, since you're not even a woman.) That's unproductive and leads to - guess what! - women being n…

Amy, i think you're off base here. You (and many others) are making an assertion about the intent of the list. Why do you assume that this is guilt tripping? Are they calling out this behavior to blame someone? Why isn't the assumption simply that they want particular behavior to cease, regardless of what the cause is? So i want one of two things for people accusing this of being a pointless exercise in flagellation.…

Assuming we agree that the list is factual or at least objective (I don't), and that there are valid issues in the list (I don't think so), and we agree that there is a problematic gender disparity that should have "awareness raised" (and I don't agree at all), which do you think is more effective...

* laying it out as List Of Privileges People With Penises Have And Don't Realize They Have, and posting it on "news" sites dominated by young men, or...

* keeping the list to yourself, and doing something about it?

Everything I know about being powerful, and being effective, says "For the love of god, take door #2."

Weak people lay out all their cards and say, "Fix it for me" and "Let's have a discussion." Strong people work behind the scenes and fix things so nobody even knew they were broken to begin with.

The bonus of the "strong and silent" choice is that it doesn't lead to these stupid kind of tail-chasing, bitchy, whiny, finger-pointy, divisive "discussions." It just creates... change.

Also, to say that the tech industry is a community - it is to laugh.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#68

Post by timr » Mon, May 25, 2009, 10:14 PM UTC

gruseom wrote: post #30

timr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Prissy" social correctors are at least smart enough to critically analyze the world around them. Boors are completely clueless. I'd take the former over the latter any day of the week.

"Prissy" social correctors are at least smart enough to critically analyze the world around them. That's not true in my observation. Most adopt a prefab ideology that they try to impose on the world around them. They like to label this "critical analysis" (or that old stalwart, "thinking for yourself"), but it isn't: if it were, their ideas and positions and tone wouldn't be so predictable. Actually, trying to impose…

That's entirely your opinion. Say what you want about the list, the author put in at least enough critical thought to compile it. So far, you've insulted the author and dismissed her (him?), but you haven't addressed any of the arguments in the list.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#69

Post by Afton » Mon, May 25, 2009, 10:19 PM UTC

likpok wrote: post #32

_cbsz wrote: post #12

What is the goal of this checklist, other than causing a series of individual guilt trips for a gender imbalance that results from societal factors and/or legitimate gender predispositions for/against our field? What are we supposed to do ? Do these people think we don't wish there were more women in the field? Also, I'm sure the ensuing discussion is going to resemble at least three other HN discussions.

So, if you pay attention to history, you can see that there isn't actually a predisposition which affects this. In the 1980's, about half[1] of computer scientists were women. Now? 10-20%. Something is being done, and it is being done wrong. So it's not as simple as "They don't want to" or "Society makes them". [1] I believe it to be about half. However, it might be slightly more or less. Definitely far higher than t…

I recommend checking out [unlocking the clubhouse](http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&#38...). It goes into this in significant detail. Too much detail for me dredge up from my read of it 3 years ago.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#70

Post by derefr » Mon, May 25, 2009, 10:26 PM UTC

tim_chevalier wrote: post #57

derefr wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would apologize if a tornado wrecked someone's home? If wild birds living in your acreage pooped on their car? If someone crashed their car (car C) because the car in front of you (car A) stopped, and you (car B) crashed into it , thereby causing all the cars behind you to do the same? All of these things are, at best, accidents. However, unlike normal accidents, where you could have prevented them by close scrut…

Sorry, I call bullshit. Under some theories (not particularly more or less credible than yours), rape is an "evolutionary urge". As is sex between adult men and 13-year-olds, as are all kinds of violent acts. Part of being an adult human is to control your "evolutionary urges and drives" so you can live in a society. Would you accept "the estrogen made me do it" from a woman as an excuse for behaving incivilly?

Yes, I would "accept" that—as a theoretical explanation. However, as a pure-determinist, I would also accept that people would be offended be her incivility, as their social mores would tell them to be in response. Likewise, rape is an evolutionary urge—but so is the urge to punish people for it, or prevent people from doing it.

To simplify: there is no need to apologize for your urge to punch someone you don't like in the face. There is no need for them to apologize for defending themselves, or calling the police. Both make subjective sense. Apologies are for when you were wrong given your own perspective.