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Four fears for authoritarians

paulbernal.wordpress.com

21–30 of 129 posts

Re: Four fears for authoritarians

#21
post #11

If anyone knew the most effective way for us UK citizens to stop our government from making irreversible constitutional mistakes I would be highly grateful for the information.

Go with pitchforks to the city council to start with. With other words, stop being afraid and take the risk to be attacked by security forces. That is the only way.

Solidarity first: find a whole load of people to go with, otherwise your "take the risk to be attacked by security forces" is just "suicide by cop".

You cannot do this as a large number of independant individuals. You need an organisation, or several; and yes, that means politics and compromise and all the other things about working with people.

Re: Four fears for authoritarians

#22
I have come to conclusion that more radical thinking is needed. American constitution (or other derived documents, such as EU Charter on Human Rights, I am EU citizen), as it stands, is not going to cut it.

The thing is, the extremes of keeping things hidden we see in the government are just a tip of a long tail of many, many people trying to keep things hidden in other, more mundane, institutions. For existential fears, people who could point out these problems stay silent. We accept this as a necessary acts, because of "competition". But aren't wars and such just another result of this thinking, really? (For an interesting take on morality of speaking truth, see also Sam Harris' book Lying.)

Here's a couple of ideas:

1. Can democratic state do without any secret service at all? I don't mean not to have "operational" security. You need to keep secret where you have troops, keys etc. But; maybe it should just release all the secrets after 5 years, about operations they did. Likewise, their operations should be made public, just like courts are. In other words, the default position should be to release, not keep secret. I am on a fence regarding technology plans - would really world be a better place if Russians couldn't make the bomb? The point is, we take position "secret service is needed" for granted; I don't think it is.

2. There should be no blank exceptions to free speech, just like in the above case. It should be right applied to everybody, not just US (or other state) citizens. Private sector shouldn't be an exception - you should have right to publicly criticize your employer. There should be no contracts preventing you from disclosing information about what you don't like, or about what happened to you.

3. I envision a platform that would allow anonymous publishing of unreliable information, which then could be collectively analyzed and the reliability of sources assessed, without revealing them. Kind of inversion of classical journalism, where you have a limited number of people (editors) accessing unreliable information and only publishing if you can reasonably prove it to be true; here you would publish indiscriminately things, that are not true, and only later, via some algorithm that would connect the sources somehow yet retain their anonymity, the correctness of the information would be proved. It should allow to connect very small leaks from many people. This would require a cultural change in how we understand media, but it could be done in incremental way.

I am not completely advocating all of what I just mentioned; I would just like to see some discussion about that. Maybe everything about institutional behavior in the past, older than 5 years, let's say, should just be fair game to publish. This rule would nicely exclude all the technical and operational plans.

Re: Four fears for authoritarians

#23
post #17

If anyone knew the most effective way for us UK citizens to stop our government from making irreversible constitutional mistakes I would be highly grateful for the information.

Well I suppose we could start by having a written constitution rather than a uncodified constitution, otherwise, it seems to me, once they bring in legal measures as acts and statutes and then the public gets used to an idea, it is not long before it gets baked into case law and then we're as good as fucked once it is accepted as common law. Other than that, I suppose we could cross our fingers and hope for the best,…

We could start with having a constitution written by rebel political idealists in the 19th century, rather than written by exactly the same kind of government insiders we'd want it to protect us against in the 21st.

If they wrote a constitution now, it would suck (they did, it's the EU constitution, and it sucks).

Re: Four fears for authoritarians

#24
post #21
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go with pitchforks to the city council to start with. With other words, stop being afraid and take the risk to be attacked by security forces. That is the only way.

Solidarity first: find a whole load of people to go with, otherwise your "take the risk to be attacked by security forces" is just "suicide by cop". You cannot do this as a large number of independant individuals. You need an organisation, or several; and yes, that means politics and compromise and all the other things about working with people.

Do we have an organisation?

Re: Four fears for authoritarians

#25

I have come to conclusion that more radical thinking is needed. American constitution (or other derived documents, such as EU Charter on Human Rights, I am EU citizen), as it stands, is not going to cut it. The thing is, the extremes of keeping things hidden we see in the government are just a tip of a long tail of many, many people trying to keep things hidden in other, more mundane, institutions. For existential fe…

"Can democratic state do without any secret service at all?"

Maybe. But probably they won't stay democratic for long. Some people are only there to make a mess.

"There should be no blank exceptions to free speech"

Remember that this works for the WBC. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's a consequence.

"you should have right to publicly criticize your employer"

But this is like it is. Free speech does not mean speech without consequences, but it means you have the right to speak your mind (as opposed to a "preventive silence")

Re: Four fears for authoritarians

#26
post #17

If anyone knew the most effective way for us UK citizens to stop our government from making irreversible constitutional mistakes I would be highly grateful for the information.

Well I suppose we could start by having a written constitution rather than a uncodified constitution, otherwise, it seems to me, once they bring in legal measures as acts and statutes and then the public gets used to an idea, it is not long before it gets baked into case law and then we're as good as fucked once it is accepted as common law. Other than that, I suppose we could cross our fingers and hope for the best,…

exactly, we need to roll back the terror laws now while its still possible.

Re: Four fears for authoritarians

#27

I have come to conclusion that more radical thinking is needed. American constitution (or other derived documents, such as EU Charter on Human Rights, I am EU citizen), as it stands, is not going to cut it. The thing is, the extremes of keeping things hidden we see in the government are just a tip of a long tail of many, many people trying to keep things hidden in other, more mundane, institutions. For existential fe…

"Can democratic state do without any secret service at all?" Maybe. But probably they won't stay democratic for long. Some people are only there to make a mess. "There should be no blank exceptions to free speech" Remember that this works for the WBC. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's a consequence. "you should have right to publicly criticize your employer" But this is like it is. Free speech does not mean speech wi…

"But probably they won't stay democratic for long."

The word "probably" is precisely my point. To my knowledge, nobody ever tested this. We have police to deal with mess, which is under public scrutiny. Why SS should be exempt is not clear at all.

"Remember that this works for the WBC."

Not being American, I don't know what you refer to, sorry.

"Free speech does not mean speech without consequences"

I don't follow. I don't understand why speaking about what happened to you in the past should have any consequence to you. It may have consequence for the other people involved, that some may learn they are not so squeaky clean, and they will lose their authority, but that's precisely what the article was about.

Re: Four fears for authoritarians

#28
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I suppose we could start by having a written constitution rather than a uncodified constitution, otherwise, it seems to me, once they bring in legal measures as acts and statutes and then the public gets used to an idea, it is not long before it gets baked into case law and then we're as good as fucked once it is accepted as common law. Other than that, I suppose we could cross our fingers and hope for the best,…

We could start with having a constitution written by rebel political idealists in the 19th century, rather than written by exactly the same kind of government insiders we'd want it to protect us against in the 21st. If they wrote a constitution now, it would suck (they did, it's the EU constitution, and it sucks).

You're not wrong.

In my opinion, all constitutions suck. They are, after all, the proverbial horse designed by committee. But its better than nothing right?

South Africa probably has the most liberal constitution in the world, that makes sense, it was drafted in modern times so takes into account modern problems like fairness and equality of homosexuals or transgender people. But in practise, I would personally doubt the same constitution is enforced to the same standards as say, Iceland (also a country with a modern constitution).

The US, must have the gold standard of constitutions and there are arguments over if the right to bare arms meant semi-automatic weapons or just muskets. Does the 4th amendment just apply to physical property and letters or digital communications too?

There is no perfect constitution, it is impossible. I don't agree with everything in the EU standards of law, but that's the sad thing, it is better than what we have now. The Germans have more protections than I do, for standards of rights our country authored and pushed on the world (with the US of course) in response to things like WW2. Its unacceptable, I would personally rather have dog shit protections than none at all.

Re: Four fears for authoritarians

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Can democratic state do without any secret service at all?" Maybe. But probably they won't stay democratic for long. Some people are only there to make a mess. "There should be no blank exceptions to free speech" Remember that this works for the WBC. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's a consequence. "you should have right to publicly criticize your employer" But this is like it is. Free speech does not mean speech wi…

"But probably they won't stay democratic for long." The word "probably" is precisely my point. To my knowledge, nobody ever tested this. We have police to deal with mess, which is under public scrutiny. Why SS should be exempt is not clear at all. "Remember that this works for the WBC." Not being American, I don't know what you refer to, sorry. "Free speech does not mean speech without consequences" I don't follow. I…

"To my knowledge, nobody ever tested this."

I'm not talking about only internal threats, but external threats as well. I'm not sure that "nobody has tested this" but history has lots of cases of coups, invasions, etc (and probably other cases where things went differently)

The WBC is the Westboro Baptist Church, read about them and how they use freedom of speech laws.

"I don't understand why speaking about what happened to you in the past should have any consequence to you."

Because of something called Defamation. There's also the possibility of having admitted to a crime.

But yes, in the US freedom of speech is very strong, even there, it's not 100% free of consequences (which may be a good thing). In some other countries defamation laws stifle free speech.

Re: Four fears for authoritarians

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Can democratic state do without any secret service at all?" Maybe. But probably they won't stay democratic for long. Some people are only there to make a mess. "There should be no blank exceptions to free speech" Remember that this works for the WBC. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's a consequence. "you should have right to publicly criticize your employer" But this is like it is. Free speech does not mean speech wi…

"But probably they won't stay democratic for long." The word "probably" is precisely my point. To my knowledge, nobody ever tested this. We have police to deal with mess, which is under public scrutiny. Why SS should be exempt is not clear at all. "Remember that this works for the WBC." Not being American, I don't know what you refer to, sorry. "Free speech does not mean speech without consequences" I don't follow. I…

>Not being American, I don't know what you refer to, sorry.

I'm not american either, but I'm pretty sure he was referring to the westboro baptist church.

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