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Soviet Scientists Made This Two-Headed Dog | Motherboard

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Re: Soviet Scientists Made This Two-Headed Dog | Motherboard

#11

Post by VladRussian2 »

acqq wrote: post #8
pavlov wrote: post #4

I'm not sure I can agree with the article's claim that these experiments were necessary: "Without that terrifying two-headed dog, in other words, we’d all go down with our failing kidneys." Eventually we would have found other ways to collect the data needed for safe organ transplants than using live mammals. It probably would have delayed the introduction of transplant procedures on humans, so in that sense there wo…

Eventually we would have found other ways to collect the data needed for safe organ transplants than using live mammals. To start doing the transplants you have to actually do the transplants. Insisting on avoiding doing it on mammals, wanting to do on humans gives only one solution: would you really prefer to immediately experiment on humans instead of mammals?

putting second heart into a dog may look like some transplant experimentation. Butchering and sewing 2 dogs together - nope, it is 1959, it is for the "wow" effect in the show of "the Soviet science under the wise leadership of the Communist Party is the most advanced science in the world". No wonder that they freely let the LIFE journalists in.

Re: Soviet Scientists Made This Two-Headed Dog | Motherboard

#12

Post by lostlogin »

deusclovis wrote: post #3
JanezStupar wrote: post #2

This is sick. The idea of two headed dog is not as sick in itself as is the clear misery these animals are experiencing.

Yes, it is absolutely horrendous. I was trying to imagine what it would be like to be aware of being a rider of a host body, separated from my body, unable to control my whereabouts.

I'm not in any way agreeing that what was done was ok, however I have observed that my dog didn't seem entirely self aware. He use to attack his legs, tail, farts etc. He would recoil in horror when he hurt himself.

Re: Soviet Scientists Made This Two-Headed Dog | Motherboard

#13

Post by Spoygg »

The conslusion of the article pictures the whole misery of false thinking. Two headed dog was not the reason for successful kidney transplant. Kidney transplant would be fine(r). Justifing this kind of lunacy is just lame. Humans want it all and want it now no matter the cost. Why do we have failing kidneys? I will not go into that direction, but just saying. Live healthy and you will not need the two headed dog to save you. Also why not just experiment on humans with their consent. "You have a failing kidney we have a new transplantation procedure that might fail but if it succeed you will be hero for future generations." - hard to imagine, it would take a bit longer to come to successful procedure.

Re: Soviet Scientists Made This Two-Headed Dog | Motherboard

#14

Post by pavlov »

jlebrech wrote: post #7
pavlov wrote: post #4

I'm not sure I can agree with the article's claim that these experiments were necessary: "Without that terrifying two-headed dog, in other words, we’d all go down with our failing kidneys." Eventually we would have found other ways to collect the data needed for safe organ transplants than using live mammals. It probably would have delayed the introduction of transplant procedures on humans, so in that sense there wo…

that's the plot for 'the island'

I guess so. It's not an original sci-fi conceit as such.

What I love about Ishiguro's book is how it's cast into a nostalgic past of about 1980, in an idyllic Summerhill-style boarding school, and the cloning alt-history scenario never takes precedence over the characters. The setup is just an ominous fateful presence that made me care very much for these young people who can never really even fathom avoiding their destiny, that it wouldn't be necessary for their days to be counted before they were even conceived.

Re: Soviet Scientists Made This Two-Headed Dog | Motherboard

#15

Post by rababababibo »

This story is one the internet like to rediscover again and again, usually it's not far from "Experiments in the Revival of Organisms" [1] by a certain Doctor Brukhonenko at around the same period of time, which lead the way to open heart surgery in Russia.

[1]: http://archive.org/details/Experime1940

Re: Soviet Scientists Made This Two-Headed Dog | Motherboard

#16

Post by acqq »

VladRussian2 wrote: post #11
acqq wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eventually we would have found other ways to collect the data needed for safe organ transplants than using live mammals. To start doing the transplants you have to actually do the transplants. Insisting on avoiding doing it on mammals, wanting to do on humans gives only one solution: would you really prefer to immediately experiment on humans instead of mammals?

putting second heart into a dog may look like some transplant experimentation. Butchering and sewing 2 dogs together - nope, it is 1959, it is for the "wow" effect in the show of "the Soviet science under the wise leadership of the Communist Party is the most advanced science in the world". No wonder that they freely let the LIFE journalists in.

I suspect that you have no idea about surgery at all. Based on what do you claim that heart transplants are valid experiments and head transplants aren't? Only because of the shock effect?

Try reading about the history of medicine: after Galen (second century common era), mostly thanks to different church/ideological dogmas, "doctors" (quotes because they were quite unsurprisingly unaware of the scientific approach) spent hundreds of years theorizing instead experimenting. Experiments of head transplantations are absolutely valid experiments.

More recently and related, USSR had its own ideology-based suppression of valid scientific approach in biology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism

Re: Soviet Scientists Made This Two-Headed Dog | Motherboard

#17

Post by jlgreco »

VladRussian2 wrote: post #11
acqq wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eventually we would have found other ways to collect the data needed for safe organ transplants than using live mammals. To start doing the transplants you have to actually do the transplants. Insisting on avoiding doing it on mammals, wanting to do on humans gives only one solution: would you really prefer to immediately experiment on humans instead of mammals?

putting second heart into a dog may look like some transplant experimentation. Butchering and sewing 2 dogs together - nope, it is 1959, it is for the "wow" effect in the show of "the Soviet science under the wise leadership of the Communist Party is the most advanced science in the world". No wonder that they freely let the LIFE journalists in.

Even things that seem like senseless "wow effect" butchering advance the state of science, if by nothing else than by establishing were our limitations are and are not.

In this specific case, this work with dogs would later play a role in inspiring Dr. Robert White to attempt the same with monkeys. This larger body of work would then play a role in the development of new surgical techniques for humans, such as the use of therapeutic hypothermia that improves survival rates by dropping body temperatures (something 'played with' during head transplant experiments to keep the brains functional for a longer period of time.)

Re: Soviet Scientists Made This Two-Headed Dog | Motherboard

#19

Post by [deleted] »

pavlov wrote: post #4

I'm not sure I can agree with the article's claim that these experiments were necessary: "Without that terrifying two-headed dog, in other words, we’d all go down with our failing kidneys." Eventually we would have found other ways to collect the data needed for safe organ transplants than using live mammals. It probably would have delayed the introduction of transplant procedures on humans, so in that sense there wo…

[deleted]
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