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The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

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Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#51

Post by maethorechannen »

maethorechannen wrote: post #50
schleyfox wrote: post #18

> Never being described as a "hot guy" first and a competent professional second. Oh Really? http://www.flickr.com/photos/46457493@N00/230535210/ > Having potential romantic partners assume from your career that you're smart and well-to-do rather than unattractive and unfeeling. Unattractive, unfeeling, AND with neck beard is our stereotype. > Joining in appreciation of the sex object du jour without having to be gay…

I'd like to add > Having your desk near the entrance to your office without visitors assuming you're the receptionist. I'm male, I've had the desk near the entrance and guess what - I got treated like a recptionist too. It's not gender, it's that your the first person people come across.

also

>Having interests that are unstereotypical for your gender and getting seen as cool and progressive rather than freaky and asexual for it.

A male (programmer or otherwise) with interests that are unstereotypical for a male is rarely seen as "cool and progressive" - being seen as freaky and gay is far more likely.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#52

Post by Tichy »

rw140 wrote: post #43
sdurkin wrote: post #38

Female Programmer Privilege Checklist: Guilting every male programmer for both real and imagined slights. The beauty of startups is that no one cares who or what you are, so long as you can deliver. So stop complaining , AND BUILD SOMETHING ALREADY.

Sure, "so long as you can deliver". Are we going to be treated equally when we fail? Even worse, are we going to be treated as representatives of half the species (someone's already linked to that XKCD cartoon). It may be paranoia, but it doesn't help. PS. Mostly I try not to guilt my co-workers about stuff. I don't think it makes them or me any more productive.

"Are we going to be treated equally when we fail?"

I don't get this. You think men don't get problems if they fail? And why do you even ask, how about trying it out? It sounds as if you don't even want to try it because of all the prejudice.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#53

Post by Tichy »

ahoyhere wrote: post #40

I find this kind of thing absolutely nauseating, divisive, and thoroughly unhelpful. I'm sure it makes you feel good, Mr Ultra Feminist, but you're not advancing "your" cause whatsoever by trying to guilt people - and with such weak, whiny examples, too. You just make women look weak and whiny. (And, by extension, yourself, since you're not even a woman.) That's unproductive and leads to - guess what! - women being n…

My favorite was from another article where they claimed that all programming languages were tailored towards male ways of thinking. If that would be the case, why not set out to create a programing language tailored towards the female way of thinking. I for one would be really curious to see that.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#54

Post by j_baker »

Tichy wrote: post #53
ahoyhere wrote: post #40

I find this kind of thing absolutely nauseating, divisive, and thoroughly unhelpful. I'm sure it makes you feel good, Mr Ultra Feminist, but you're not advancing "your" cause whatsoever by trying to guilt people - and with such weak, whiny examples, too. You just make women look weak and whiny. (And, by extension, yourself, since you're not even a woman.) That's unproductive and leads to - guess what! - women being n…

My favorite was from another article where they claimed that all programming languages were tailored towards male ways of thinking. If that would be the case, why not set out to create a programing language tailored towards the female way of thinking. I for one would be really curious to see that.

Just out of curiosity, would you happen to have a link to the article? I'm genuinely curious as to what makes a programming language "male oriented".

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#55

Post by rw140 »

Tichy wrote: post #52
rw140 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, "so long as you can deliver". Are we going to be treated equally when we fail? Even worse, are we going to be treated as representatives of half the species (someone's already linked to that XKCD cartoon). It may be paranoia, but it doesn't help. PS. Mostly I try not to guilt my co-workers about stuff. I don't think it makes them or me any more productive.

"Are we going to be treated equally when we fail?" I don't get this. You think men don't get problems if they fail? And why do you even ask, how about trying it out? It sounds as if you don't even want to try it because of all the prejudice.

Well, I've not been employed all that long, no-one's waved a study at me, and I don't know so many girls in my field that I can figure this out just by talking about it to other people (I'd have to talk to an equal number of boys as well, but for some reason they're a lot easier to find).

I already have one (fairly minor) failure under my belt. I seem to have got away with it. I'm still in my job, still working on the same kind of stuff I was before, and no-one told me not to bother my pretty little head about that bit because I'm clearly not so good at things like that.

Yes, I think everyone gets problems if they fail. But my worry is about second chances, and blocking off areas of computing for other people.

Someone I know made an off-hand comment about every girl who has worked in this department has worked on the UI. I don't know if they've ever had a girl on the build team. I don't know if they've ever had a girl working on the really low-level stuff. There certainly aren't any at the moment. Is there an underlying current of 'girls are better at the touchy-feely UI stuff'? Do girls overall really tend to work better with UIs? Am I comparing teams with a high turnover with teams with a low one? Am I trying to generalise from too little data again?

So, let's have a hypothetical opportunity for me to go and work on some arbitrary low-level stuff. Maybe it's to do with networking protocols. And maybe for one reason or another I'm blindingly obviously no good at it whatsoever. Will this affect my ability to go into unrelated areas with similarly few past examples of successful ladies later? Will it affect Alice (who knows not just about networking protocols, but also basic cryptography) when she is hired next week? Will she then have to work harder than Bob to persuade everyone that she is competent in that area? Maybe I should play it safe and work on something that is less challenging and that I know I can succeed at. After all, if Alice fails as well, then Eve may be looked over entirely. And that would make me feel really guilty. So the penalty for failure is higher.

Of course, there's a good chance there is no bias whatsoever. And I'm fairly likely to take a few risks. But you don't need actual bias for this to have an effect. If there is enough fear of bias you'll end up with too much risk-averse behaviour, and thus under-performing ladies.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#56

Post by ahoyhere »

Tichy wrote: post #53
ahoyhere wrote: post #40

I find this kind of thing absolutely nauseating, divisive, and thoroughly unhelpful. I'm sure it makes you feel good, Mr Ultra Feminist, but you're not advancing "your" cause whatsoever by trying to guilt people - and with such weak, whiny examples, too. You just make women look weak and whiny. (And, by extension, yourself, since you're not even a woman.) That's unproductive and leads to - guess what! - women being n…

My favorite was from another article where they claimed that all programming languages were tailored towards male ways of thinking. If that would be the case, why not set out to create a programing language tailored towards the female way of thinking. I for one would be really curious to see that.

See, the funny thing here is I agree, up to a point and with a lot of footnotes.

The "extreme male brain" is overrepresented in programming, and programming tools are made by the people in programming.

But those "male-oriented" languages would be better describe as "extreme male brain-oriented" because it's more common in men but not exclusively a male trait. I have met women just like that, too, and there are tests that place you on a gender scale (for lack of a better way to put it), based on your cognitive style. (I test as more male than female in my own cognitive style, for example.)

So these "extreme male brain-oriented" languages don't really exclude anyone, but they may not feel comfortable or natural. And I wouldn't say they are unnatural for women, but unnatural for anyone with a more "typical female brain" cognitive style -- including some women of course, and lots of men who happen to have different cognitive styles, including designers, linguists, architects, teachers, musicians, etc.

I think Ruby is an anti-example of this assertion. So is HyperCard, AppleScript (to some degree), Logo, and Ethan, and there are others.

Of course, it's entirely ridiculous to say that the fact that languages are "extreme male brain-oriented" is some kind of oppressive conspiracy.

People who have to make their own tools, make them to suit themselves.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#57

Post by tim_chevalier »

derefr wrote: post #13
DanHulton wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Please don't downvote because you disagree. Downvoting is for people who are adding nothing to the conversation or actively trolling.) I was totally with you until the "I refuse to apologize for it" part. I'll apologize for it, because that's a part of being decent . I'll also explain the effect that kind of clothing has, and if the lady in question doesn't change the way she dresses, I'll inform HR so they are awar…

You would apologize if a tornado wrecked someone's home? If wild birds living in your acreage pooped on their car? If someone crashed their car (car C) because the car in front of you (car A) stopped, and you (car B) crashed into it , thereby causing all the cars behind you to do the same? All of these things are, at best, accidents. However, unlike normal accidents, where you could have prevented them by close scrut…

Sorry, I call bullshit. Under some theories (not particularly more or less credible than yours), rape is an "evolutionary urge". As is sex between adult men and 13-year-olds, as are all kinds of violent acts. Part of being an adult human is to control your "evolutionary urges and drives" so you can live in a society.

Would you accept "the estrogen made me do it" from a woman as an excuse for behaving incivilly?

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#58

Post by gruseom »

wingo wrote: post #37
gruseom wrote: post #4

Prissy social correctors are no less annoying than boors.

Why would you be annoyed at this? It's not a dominant perspective, one that you hear every day. Your statement, while pithy, misses the point.

Heh. Not a bad question. That combination of pretentiousness and self-righteousness gets to me. I can sense it a mile off and feel an urge to take it down a peg. But why? I don't know. Maybe I'm a closeted ideologue. Or a closeted satirist.

It once occurred to me that to be angry about hypocrisy is hypocritical, since no one's words and actions are in complete agreement. I toned down a bit after that :)

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#59

Post by Tichy »

rw140 wrote: post #55
Tichy wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Are we going to be treated equally when we fail?" I don't get this. You think men don't get problems if they fail? And why do you even ask, how about trying it out? It sounds as if you don't even want to try it because of all the prejudice.

Well, I've not been employed all that long, no-one's waved a study at me, and I don't know so many girls in my field that I can figure this out just by talking about it to other people (I'd have to talk to an equal number of boys as well, but for some reason they're a lot easier to find). I already have one (fairly minor) failure under my belt. I seem to have got away with it. I'm still in my job, still working on th…

"If there is enough fear of bias you'll end up with too much risk-averse behaviour"

But why start out with the fear of bias? For what it's worth, there are a lot of bad male programmers. I even suspect most programmers think that most other programmers are bad. And for men, there can be bias, too, like "we have always been disappointed by coders who did not study to university level" or "coders from India" or "Java developers" or whatever.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#60

Post by Tichy »

j_baker wrote: post #54
Tichy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite was from another article where they claimed that all programming languages were tailored towards male ways of thinking. If that would be the case, why not set out to create a programing language tailored towards the female way of thinking. I for one would be really curious to see that.

Just out of curiosity, would you happen to have a link to the article? I'm genuinely curious as to what makes a programming language "male oriented".

I tried to yahoo it, but did not find it. It came up during the recent "male vs female programmers" surge.
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