Maybe my statuesque coder arms need some sexy recursive algorithm tattoos to flex in her general direction ;-)
Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?
61–70 of 76 posts
Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
> People do what they want, less women want to program Fewer women want to program because they're taught from a very young age that they can't. As a result, we're losing out on a bunch of great programmers, which I think is a loss. I also think it's sad that girls are made to feel like these things are off-limits to them. I think the world would be a better place if every kid thought they could do whatever job they…
Whose teaching them they cant?
I don't know. My programming teacher in high school was literally on his knees begging the last two girls to continue to the next level.
Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?
#63why aren't there more women ironworkers? roofers? plumbers? auto mechanics? machinists? coal miners? underwater welders? oil riggers? merchant marines?
I was just thinking along the same lines, but with pilots. To flip the question somewhat, what is an industry which managed to successfully turn around its gender balance? From mostly men to a somewhat more natural ratio. What can we learn from that industry?
Medicine & Law
Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?
#64The problem of representation of women, isn't just in our industry. Nearly all branches of engineering are the very same. In fact I find software to be a far more attractive profession for women than other engineering branches.
In my total 4 years of engineering course. The branch with the least representation of girls was mechanical engineering, I say this because in all 4 years I didn't see a single girl take up mechanical engineering, same with civil engineering. Electronic and Communication was a little better, the best was Computer science, which seem to have only girls.
But that's sort of understandable, in the first year of engineering we had this subject called 'machine shop', you basically would have to build models with metal pieces, then there was a good enough amount of sheet metal work. You had to learn to use the hack saw, welding, soldering etc- there was also a good deal of carpentry. To give you a clue, even boys(most of them geeks and nerd types) from my branch(Electronics) found it exceedingly difficult to finish 40% of the models we were supposed to finish. They would be very physically tiring exercises, which we were never subjected to. Girls couldn't manage even 10% of them, in fact many of us helped them personally so that they could get passing marks.
Now I understand why no girl would ever want to get into things like mechanical and civil engineering. You have to work in male dominated cultures, where the work is almost designed such that a man could excel doing it- while you struggle to catch up. And you will be facing outright physical limitations. Now imagine doing this for years, Its a deal breaker to even begin with.
Coming to programming, the problem begins only when the going gets tough. I've seen a good deal of representation of women in large companies. The problem starts when you get into the rockstar culture, where you are expected put 16 hrs/day + traveling as a norm. When you start depicting whole night 'hackdays' as a sign of coolness. When learning new stuff needlessly happens just because its new etc. Now you are setting up a culture which is difficult for most women who have kids and family.
Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you want to prove that fewer women than men become programmers because of obstacles, it's not enough to point out the obstacles faced by women, you also need to argue that the obstacles faced by men are less severe. I think you'll have a hard time arguing that, considering how nerdy guys are treated in school by both girls and other guys. Girls who go into programming don't take such a big hit in attractiveness.
They don't? Can you prove that?
I would say women who study computer science get a huge boost in attractiveness. Every year there are around 100 boys and 2-5 girls in first year of computer science at my university. As a computer science student you don't see many other girls, so after a while the girls can choose whoever they want. To be honest it's really sad, there are girls who realized that they can date two guys at the same time. The guys know about each other.
Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?
#66why aren't there more women ironworkers? roofers? plumbers? auto mechanics? machinists? coal miners? underwater welders? oil riggers? merchant marines?
Several of those jobs depend on physical strength, an area in which there are significant physiological differences between men and women. Men have more muscle mass on average both in absolute amount and as a percentage of body mass. Men have a greater capacity for muscular hypertrophy due to higher testosterone levels. There are also differences in food processing that tend to give men more muscle and more energy. See [1] for more.
Typically, there is a 40-50% difference in upper body strength, and a 20-30% difference in lower body strength. Men also have significantly higher grip strength.
Those are averages, and there is overlap, but generally the pool of people qualified for jobs that depend a lot on physical strength is simply going to have a lot more men then women.
Programming is not such a job, so you can't really look to coal miners or oil riggers to explain why there aren't more women programmers.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_human_physio...
Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?
#67*female
'women' is a noun, 'female' is an adjective. We wouldn't say 'men programmers', we say 'male programmers'.
Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?
#68So I went to an undergrad for engineering, and my freshman class was 72% male, 28% female, and my major was probably 85% male, 15% female. At my first job, we never broke two women out of a team that was maybe a dozen engineers by the time we left. At my second job, there was briefly one woman but the rest of the time it was zero out of 8-9 engineers. My law school class was 55% male, 45% female, and my firm was pret…
I think that in all these other professions managers understand (and respect) what their employees do.
Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?
#69So I went to an undergrad for engineering, and my freshman class was 72% male, 28% female, and my major was probably 85% male, 15% female. At my first job, we never broke two women out of a team that was maybe a dozen engineers by the time we left. At my second job, there was briefly one woman but the rest of the time it was zero out of 8-9 engineers. My law school class was 55% male, 45% female, and my firm was pret…
Most of the good programmers are here by choice. Even if this choice meant being the nerdy kid in the room through school / life. To be fair - no one thinks of a doctor/lawyer as a geek, but our job comes with that distinct tag. It is just that we have learnt to ignore / live with it.
This is going to sound ignorant - but: Is it difficult / different for a woman to ignore that tag and still do cs (assuming she wants to)?
Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?
#70So I went to an undergrad for engineering, and my freshman class was 72% male, 28% female, and my major was probably 85% male, 15% female. At my first job, we never broke two women out of a team that was maybe a dozen engineers by the time we left. At my second job, there was briefly one woman but the rest of the time it was zero out of 8-9 engineers. My law school class was 55% male, 45% female, and my firm was pret…
Most of the good programmers are here by choice. Even if this choice meant being the nerdy kid in the room through school / life. To be fair - no one thinks of a doctor/lawyer as a geek, but our job comes with that distinct tag. It is just that we have learnt to ignore / live with it. This is going to sound ignorant - but: Is it difficult / different for a woman to ignore that tag and still do cs (assuming she wants…
You don't need to be the nerdy kid in the room to be a good programmer.