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Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?

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Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?

#51

Post by greyfade »

Killswitch wrote: post #9
madao wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally and wholeheartedly agree, I do not think gender has anything to do with it. It should be more about a willingness to learn and an interest in the subject.

Agreed. If woman want to be programmers they will. It's just that men gravitate towards it more... I don't see anybody writing articles titled "Why aren't more men playing with barbies and makeup?" Edit: not saying men don't. I grew up in a household of girls. I DID play with barbies. Not makeup though.

But a lot of women (more than you'd think) are actively told from an early age that they are not capable of learning math, and that they can't reasonably have a successful career in science or engineering.

This even despite the fact that there are a lot of other women who weren't taught this nonsense, and have been very successful in scientific and engineering fields.

I don't think it's a matter of women not gravitating toward programming. It's more likely a matter of girls being taught that they're not capable of it and not having successful role models who are in these industries.

Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?

#52

Post by NamTaf »

This is just a subset of the broader question of "why aren't there more women in tech?". I honestly think, in no small part, that the answer is "because the tech hobby community is so toxic to women". Note that I don't mean the professional industry, but rather more generally that women who may be interested in computers / tech in general get zealously singled out and demeaned. This drives women away from exploring their interest and in turn cuts off any chance they'd have taken at turning that interest in to a career.

It's sickening how toxic the community is to women. Misogyny is often a cornerstone of 'internet humour' (e.g.: comments about getting back in the kitchen) and people act surprised when women are marginalised and driven away from indulging their interest in technology as a hobby. It's so normalised that even other women repeat the misogynist comments. I'm sure there's a fascinating psychology paper here on 21st century stockholm syndrome.

I really don't understand how people can be surprised women are systematically driven from the tech industry when their exposure of it is so constantly toxic.

An excellent case in point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Sarkeesian#Kickstarter_c...

preemptive edit: Just to repeat, I don't think that the professional industry is systemically misogynist. It's the hobby community centred mainly around the internet (which is, let's face it, the primary medium through which interest in tech and programming especially is explored) which kills any interest in the field before it can reach the stage of becoming a possible career option.

Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?

#53

Post by jessitron »

colmvp wrote: post #14
Sandman wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I always wondered whether one of the main reasons why there are less female than male programmers is that, well, most women simply prefer other professions.

I wish we were more specific though. It's not just 'male' programmers. I've lived in American cities with large African American and Hispanic populations, yet the vast majority of the programmer demographic I've worked with or have worked under or have met are white males with some limited degree of representation of Asian men. And it's not that I don't care about women's issues, but I feel annoyed when I get grouped…

I completely agree. Gender is the easiest to measure, of the diversity metrics, and it's an accepted conversation in our political climate. Talking about race is far more uncomfortable. Which probably means it's a bigger problem.

While there are few women in programming, there are a lot more women than Hispanics or people of color. In my opinion this is even worse than the gender disparity. Are the reasons the same? I suspect so, especially #3.

I didn't mention race in the original post, because I'm white. I have no credibility there.

Thank you for bringing it up.

Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?

#54

Post by jacalata »

beachstartup wrote: post #49

why aren't there more women ironworkers? roofers? plumbers? auto mechanics? machinists? coal miners? underwater welders? oil riggers? merchant marines?

Historical restrictions that have been legally stripped away, but left behind a strong layer of discrimination and occasionally even hostility, creating an extra layer of difficulty for young women attempting to enter the trades, and a social sense that 'women don't do that' which works to discourage them from having the idea in the first place. Gosh, you might be on to something.

Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?

#55

Post by minikomi »

beachstartup wrote: post #49

why aren't there more women ironworkers? roofers? plumbers? auto mechanics? machinists? coal miners? underwater welders? oil riggers? merchant marines?

I was just thinking along the same lines, but with pilots.

To flip the question somewhat, what is an industry which managed to successfully turn around its gender balance? From mostly men to a somewhat more natural ratio. What can we learn from that industry?

Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?

#56

Post by graycat »

Because maybe a lot of women know some things the OP does not!

Before we ask women to charge into programming, we should be quite clear on why there are so few women in programming now and just what will happen to the women who go into programming based on our encouragement based on our guesses of what the situation will be like and what the results will be.

It took me a very long time to get some understanding of women. A first lesson is, in both obvious and deep ways, they are not much like men. In a word, they are different.

Be careful.

Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?

#57

Post by lutusp »

NamTaf wrote: post #52

This is just a subset of the broader question of "why aren't there more women in tech?". I honestly think, in no small part, that the answer is "because the tech hobby community is so toxic to women". Note that I don't mean the professional industry, but rather more generally that women who may be interested in computers / tech in general get zealously singled out and demeaned. This drives women away from exploring t…

> This is just a subset of the broader question of "why aren't there more women in tech?". I honestly think, in no small part, that the answer is "because the tech hobby community is so toxic to women".

I don't think that's the barrier you seem to think. If women really thought programming was a worthwhile way to spend their time, they would create their own software companies/clubs/whatever and enforce any behavioral and attitude rules they cared to have.

Can women program? Absolutely -- at least as well as men. Do women want to program? Apparently not.

> I really don't understand how people can be surprised women are systematically driven from the tech industry when their exposure of it is so constantly toxic.

Women are not being driven out of the tech industry, they're being driven out of male-dominated enclaves. Women don't like the testosterone-drenched parts of the business, and they don't care to create a more congenial atmosphere for themselves as they have in many other professions. No one knows why, but it's misleading and counterproductive to explain that women can't produce technically successful companies and environments because men won't let them. Men don't have that kind of power any more -- the only thing stopping women is women.

The bottom line is that gender equality is not something men give to women, it is something that women take, because it's their right. The only question is whether women will choose to do it.

Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?

#58

Post by rayiner »

zanny wrote: post #43
patmcc wrote: post #2

Good post in whole, but part of #3 really caught my eye: >>When I go to Kindergarten Moms Night and someone asks what I do, "computer programming" usually ends the conversation I don't this is specific to women - I run into exactly the same thing talking about my tech job with friends, family, strangers, etc. There's also always an underlying question that gets avoided in these types of articles - what's the "correct…

> what's the "correct" percentage Whatever numer of people that, barring societal interference, in an isolated vacuum with neutral exposure to all professions, choose the profession based only on personality and aptitude. Maybe some market pressure towards in-demand professions, but that should be mostly extrinsic to someone in their developmental years until after they are exposed to most possible career paths. Like…

I think people are unnecessarily scared of affirmative action. In the 1960's, law was 95% men. Sandra Day O'Connor could only get a job as a secretary at a law firm despite graduating third in her class at Stanford. After aggressive affirmative action, today the mostly even gender ratio in large law firms is completely self-perpetuating.

I think that teaches us two things:

1) It's foolish to jump to conclusions about the "natural number" of women in programming. If you equalize the ratio and it sticks when you remove the affirmative action, that's the natural number.

2) Affirmative action can work when it comes to gender issues, even if it has been less successful for race issues. I think that's because gender doesn't have heritable socioeconomic status like race. A girl is equally likely as a boy to be born into a family that can say afford college, but that's not true of say blacks and whites.

Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?

#59

Post by Sandman »

jacalata wrote: post #44
Sandman wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I always wondered whether one of the main reasons why there are less female than male programmers is that, well, most women simply prefer other professions.

If it is normal for women not to want to do programming then the corollary is that women who do enjoy programming are 'abnormal' and 'not like most women', perhaps you could call it 'unfeminine'. Given that attitude, readily demonstrated by half of HN here, how could girls possibly sense an external pressure not to be programmers?

I don't know where you got that. I never said that it's not normal for women to want to do programming. I only said that it may be that most women prefer other professions. Just as most men prefer other professions than being, for example, accountants (most accountants are women). That being said, there are quite a few women programmers I really admire. Bodil Stokke comes to mind, for example.

Re: Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?

#60

Post by pjbrunet »

jacalata wrote: post #39
pjbrunet wrote: post #31

Maybe it's our prehistoric roots. You could compare programming to hunting: no talking.

I'm pretty sure hunting a mammoth involved an unbelievable amount of teamwork and communication, actually. Whereas picking fruit can be done very easily without talking to the other fruit-pickers at all.

Mammoth has ears. Fruit don't.
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