Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks • Hacker News Board

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#341

Post by beagle3 » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 12:18 AM UTC

will_work4tears wrote: post #273

beagle3 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now for the science: neither people nor animals make their own B12. Instead, we employ good bacteria in our gut to do that (and so do cows). After the discovery of antibiotics, many people in the western world became B12 deficient - especially vegetarians. However cows and other animals are just as incapable of making it - and in the last 30 years or so, just as deficient as humans, as they've also been getting l…

I think if anyone reasonable researches this they'll see that there is still some controversy on the issue (Studies show both sides). I don't have an axe to grind in this argument, so I'm not even going to bother digging that deep, but I'm not entirely convinced. I'm not a meat eater for the sole purpose of getting B12 and dont' try to convince vegans to eat meat with such sad arguments, so I hardly care what the tru…

> I think if anyone reasonable researches this they'll see that there is still some controversy on the issue (Studies show both sides).

I've never heard of a study claiming B12 in animals in vivo is not synthesized by bacteria (or archaea). Care to give a reference?

> sorry, It's a fallacy, but I don't like getting my "facts" from programmers and Wikipedia

Programmers, ok. Wikipedia - why? and "dieticians and health professionals" - sorry, most of them have no idea what they are talking about - they are just parroting what they learned. You admit yourself it is a fallacy. What's the point then?

> Anyway, my guess is you are in your early to mid twenties, and probably have only been a vegan for a handful of years, am I right? Give it 20, 30 years and lets see if your B12 levels are still good.

Your guess is very wrong. Been vegetarian for over 35 years (only a few years of those vegan, but not having a B12 source in almost any). And my B12 levels are very good, although they weren't in the past.

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#342

Post by ncallaway » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 12:31 AM UTC

woofyman wrote: post #33

mparlane wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of things were invented for "lazy" people so they could save time to do other more important things. Like my electric razor, I have my safety razor too, but it's so much faster to use my electric. A coworker has a beard so he can save 5 minutes in the morning, is it lazy to want time to do other things?

Eating real food is one of life's great pleasures.

I agree with this statement, and yet I think ideas like Soylent are great. Why? Because I don't eat quality home-cooked food three meals a day. Often, my breakfasts consist of a store bought English-muffin toasted and coated in peanut butter. I'm not eating that because I get to savor the amazing flavors. I'm eating it because it's: a) quick b) somewhat healthy and c) provides me with a reasonable amount of energy for my morning.

Some meals I eat for the enjoyment of the food. Those are meals I wouldn't replace with Soylent. Some meals I eat for the utility that the food provides; I'd happily replace some of those with Soylent.

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#343

Post by nbouscal » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 12:37 AM UTC

Volpe wrote: post #236

nbouscal wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of your three solutions are healthy, generally speaking. There are a few meal replacement products that are reasonable, but most of them are full of sugar and don't provide many nutrients, because they expect you to only replace one meal. Fast food and hot dog stands are exactly the kind of food that Soylent is a good replacement for.

Is soylent healthy?

The problem with the word 'healthy' is that if you're trying to discuss nutrition rigorously, you really can't call a given food (or substance) healthy. It really only works as an adjective for an entire diet. If someone already consumes way too much vitamin C, more vitamin C is definitely not healthy. And yet for a sailor who hasn't seen greens in months, it definitely is. So, nothing can really be seen as healthy in isolation, the context is essential.

So then, the correct question is "Is a diet of only Soylent healthy?" Even here we run into some pretty significant trouble: nutrition is not a developed enough science to really answer that question yet. We don't have a good metric of healthiness, even for an entire diet. What we can do, though, is make comparisons. We can ask if a diet of only Soylent is healthier than a diet of only rocks. That one's a pretty easy yes. More meaningfully, we can ask if a diet of only Soylent is healthier than a diet of only fast food. I'm confident that it is, but this is where the disagreement begins. Unfortunately, this stuff is hard to test. Forcing someone to eat nothing but fast food for an experiment would be completely unethical, and observing people who already only eat fast food would be subject to some really significant sampling bias.

This has all been a long-winded way of saying that there's no way to know, yet. I would strongly argue that adult consumers should be free to experiment with their diet as long as they do it responsibly. There are definitely some moral and legal gray areas here ('experimenting with your diet' by downing a bottle of pills is still attempted suicide).

I think it's highly likely that a diet of only Soylent is quite a bit healthier than the diet I'm currently eating (way more fast food and take out than I should, for a variety of reasons). That being the case, I'm very happy to give it a try.

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#344

Post by lsc » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 1:10 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #309

lsc wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? You are unaware of meal replacement bars and drinks? https://www.google.com/search?q=meal+replacement+shakes Almost all of them are marketed to the diet crowd. There are a bunch of 'atkins' branded bars, too, if you are going the low-carb route. Slim-fast, I know, can be had in giant tubs for relatively little money per serving; I remember as a kid, looking through my grandparent's pantry and finding a gia…

> marketing it to hackers is a new thing, and something I, personally, would have never considered, and the guy is doing a hell of a job of it Really, it's textbook. He's using his ties and understanding of a subculture demographic to market to it specifically.

>Really, it's textbook. He's using his ties and understanding of a subculture demographic to market to it specifically.

Sure, but the execution (to me) looks good. He is doing a way better job, for example, than I've done at marketing VPSs - a product that is much more natural to this market. Better, I think, than I did even back when I had a compelling price advantage over the competition.

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#345

Post by lsc » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 1:19 AM UTC

asdasf wrote: post #287

lsc wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? You are unaware of meal replacement bars and drinks? https://www.google.com/search?q=meal+replacement+shakes Almost all of them are marketed to the diet crowd. There are a bunch of 'atkins' branded bars, too, if you are going the low-carb route. Slim-fast, I know, can be had in giant tubs for relatively little money per serving; I remember as a kid, looking through my grandparent's pantry and finding a gia…

How about actually clicking the links in those search results. Nothing in the first few pages even attempts to provide a food replacement. None of them provide 100% of known essential nutrients. You will develop a vitamin deficiency consuming any of those exclusively. That is in no way accomplishing what soylent claims to do.

>None of them provide 100% of known essential nutrients. You will develop a vitamin deficiency consuming any of those exclusively. That is in no way accomplishing what soylent claims to do.

Personally? I dismiss those claims as marketing fluff. I am not competent to evaluate those claims; I'm not saying that the guy is lying or anything, soylent may in fact be perfect. I don't know. but the claims sound so out there that I don't think they are worth evaluating. I am treating them as marketing fluff until/unless credible people do a credible study.

I suspect that none of the other meal replacement drinks make such claims due to fear of legal liability. "A delicious shake for breakfast, lunch, and a sensible dinner" is the standard formula, which is reasonable; I'm sure Soylent would work just fine on a similar plan. (hell, for most of us, water would work just fine.)

I bet that as Soylent accumulates money (and lawyers) they will move towards a model where they emphasize 'And a sensible dinner'

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#346

Post by lsc » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 1:24 AM UTC

StavrosK wrote: post #243

lsc wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I can't guarantee they are better than fast food. But, I bet you can find one that is similar to Soylent. It is more convenient than fast food. I actually kinda like the McDonald's salads. I mean, as far as you can like fast food at all. If you go easy on the dressing, (the dressing comes in a package that looks like a giant-size katsup packet, so you get to decide how much you eat.) I think it's probably prett…

Hmm, thanks. If they don't sate my hunger, there's no reason to them. I'll either keep cooking chicken breasts (you just pop them in the oven for an hour with minimal preparation and are delicious) or have milk with cereal, one cup of which keeps me full for 5-6 hours. Losing weight with that sort of diet has never been a problem, as I feel full all day and still manage to have a nicely-sized dinner. About the target…

Yeah. I like chicken; cheap and easy. I put dried chopped onions on mine before cooking, but yeah, that's a huge part of my own diet, along with salads, which are good for 'fill you up' bulk.

I've also started doing slow-cooker pork. I pan fry it when I'm done, and it comes out kind of somewhere between pulled pork and carnitas. I slow-cooked a bunch of boneless beef short ribs last night, I haven't tried them yet. more expensive per pound, but short ribs are so good.

Especially if I cook something in sauce (like chili) I put it in little ziplock baggies and freeze it.

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#347

Post by Tloewald » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 1:39 AM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #240

samstave wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I have no ability to judge the veracity of the claims of Soylent.me -- let me tell you the only reason I am hopeful it works is for the same reason Jobs only wore black turtle-necks and jeans: simplicity. I want to be able to take a good fuel for my body and indulge in great food whenever I want. I want to be able to back-pack for a week with only a 4-pound food supply.

Well we all know how Steve Jobs foray into doing it his way turned out. I am all for new and ingenious ways to maintaining one's health. However I am not for new ways that don't have the strong trusted evaluations. The number of bad habits I engage in over my days is one thing, I am not about to jump from fad to fad in hopes of out smarting the medical community.

Um, blaming pancreatic cancer on eating too much fruit?

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#348

Post by nbouscal » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 2:58 AM UTC

silencio wrote: post #139

nbouscal wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main difference for me between Soylent and the other options on the market is the specific goals of the products. There are a variety of other options, but as you said, the majority aren't intended as replacements for your entire diet (those ones also tend to beat Soylent on flavor only by being chock full of sugar). There are a few that are complete diet replacements, mostly used for medical purposes, but the fa…

> Soylent's different target market What exactly is Soylent's target market? 20-30 something men? As much as I love the idea of a meal replacement, the idea of a one-formula-for-all Soylent marketed as a near-entire meal replacement is kind of disturbing. I really hope the Soylent team figure things out soon by coming out with multiple formulas, or at least make it really clear who they're targeting first. You don't…

They are already releasing male and female versions, with the female version having more iron (among other differences). They're also planning on setting it up so that you can customize it further based on activity level, etc, but that is still a few months out.

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#349

Post by nbouscal » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 2:59 AM UTC

jacques_chester wrote: post #267

vidarh wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> haven't been able to create a total replacement for food. Haven't they? I've seen this claim repeatedly in debates about Soylent, but I've never seen it substantiated other than by pointing to marketing claims on related meal replacement products, which may be motivated very much in part by there not being any real benefits to claiming it is a full food replacement, coupled with a lot of potential downsides such as…

Let's not kid ourselves. The original hook was replacing food.

I think you misunderstood vidarh's post. His/her second paragraph was referencing existing providers, not Soylent.

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#350

Post by nbouscal » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 3:07 AM UTC

jacques_chester wrote: post #148

nbouscal wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Say, for example, that I'm replacing fast food. In that scenario Soylent costs less money, takes less time (don't have to go to the fast food place, less time actually eating), is almost certainly healthier, and won't make me feel like crap afterwards. At this point I can't think of any way to continue extending the sex analogy that doesn't get a bit too off-color.

Apart from being calorically dense and salty, fast food is still food . Ordinary food, even fast food, contains an abundance of complex nutrients, some of which are only poorly understood. Companies with actual dietitians and biologists and millions of dollars and labs and decades of lead time haven't been able to create a total replacement for food. There are too many variations in what different people need, too ma…

Judging from this and other comments you've made, you seem to think of "food" as being something other than just chemicals. It's not. Food, just like humans, is just an assortment of chemicals. There is nothing mysterious about it, there are no hidden secrets that we can't discover with a microscope, it's just chemicals arranged in a certain pattern.

Yes, there may be some of those chemicals that we haven't yet recognized as being important to a healthy diet. However, since quite a few people (not just Rob, there's an entire community built around this doing DIY Soylent for the past few months) have been fine on Soylent for a significant amount of time, there's not much reason to think that we're missing anything life-or-death important. We certainly know that there isn't anything in your typical fast-food meal that is both important for health and missing from Soylent.

It seems like you have two main objections. First, judging from your posts, you really fucking love food. That's cool, and I'm happy that you can get that much enjoyment from eating, but a lot of us don't. Second, you seem to think that there's a fundamental difference between food and not-food (Soylent). If you look at the chemistry though, there really isn't. In fact, Soylent has significantly more healthful nutrients than the average American's diet.

That all said, nobody is trying to convince you to convert to Soylent. I couldn't care less where you get your nutrition. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the same courtesy in the other direction.