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The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

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Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#41

Post by enneff »

jrockway wrote: post #11
teilo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, here's the deal. If you are a man, you have to actively move the eyes away, but the pull is always there. Now that does not mean you cannot be professional, but it does mean you have to constantly and actively choose to be so. A woman who dresses provocatively in the office is a distraction. Far be it from me to tell women how to dress, but most women do not understand the effect they have on men, and of those…

What exactly does "a woman who dresses provocatively" distract you from? I can see how it might be enjoyable, but I'm not sure how that would prevent you from doing work. I also don't see why you can't keep those thoughts to yourself, just like you don't make fun of "a provocatively stupid guy" to their face. On the other side of the coin, if you work closely with 10 other people of the opposite sex, it confuses me a…

I can (and do) certainly keep my thoughts to myself, but I will sometimes find myself distracted by being aroused by a woman's appearance in the office building where I work. Being horny is not condusive to a productive work day.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#42

Post by rw140 »

nopassrecover wrote: post #19

"Not having to explain why the term "gentlemen" doesn't include you. " - So no "Hi gentleman", fair enough "# Listening to speakers refer to an inanimate software construct as "this guy" without getting distracted. " - So no "Hi guys", fair enough "Not being the special case ("hi guys and girls, I guess, too, if you want to get really technical about it!!") " - So no "Hi guys and girls", err..

You could try 'Hi, everyone'. I suspect it depends on who you have in your audience. Personally the special case irks me more than a general 'Hi chaps', or 'Hi guys'. It simultaneously singles me out and wastes my time.

I wouldn't generalise too far off this list, though. It looks like an amalgam of things that annoy different ladies. I only picked out 5 of them that I agreed with.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#43

Post by rw140 »

sdurkin wrote: post #38

Female Programmer Privilege Checklist: Guilting every male programmer for both real and imagined slights. The beauty of startups is that no one cares who or what you are, so long as you can deliver. So stop complaining , AND BUILD SOMETHING ALREADY.

Sure, "so long as you can deliver". Are we going to be treated equally when we fail? Even worse, are we going to be treated as representatives of half the species (someone's already linked to that XKCD cartoon). It may be paranoia, but it doesn't help.

PS. Mostly I try not to guilt my co-workers about stuff. I don't think it makes them or me any more productive.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#44

Post by enneff »

nopassrecover wrote: post #19

"Not having to explain why the term "gentlemen" doesn't include you. " - So no "Hi gentleman", fair enough "# Listening to speakers refer to an inanimate software construct as "this guy" without getting distracted. " - So no "Hi guys", fair enough "Not being the special case ("hi guys and girls, I guess, too, if you want to get really technical about it!!") " - So no "Hi guys and girls", err..

"Hey everyone!" "Hi!" "Good morning/afternoon/evening/day!" "Hello!" "Greetings!" etc...

Although I say "Hi Guys!" sometimes when greeting my wife and daughter, so I don't really see what's so offensive about it.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#45

Post by enneff »

thristian wrote: post #21

> Listening to speakers refer to an inanimate software construct as "this guy" without getting distracted. I wasn't sure why this particular item was included, but I suppose I too am momentarily distracted when I hear a woman personify an inanimate object as 'she'. I mean, I understand it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do, but there's just that split second where the world seems to turn inside-out and I have to re…

I find the whole anthropomorphising abstract objects to be an annoying and distracting trait, anyway, whether they're saying "he" or "she". (My mind is saying inside "It's an IT, damn it!")

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#46

Post by jlouis »

rw140 wrote: post #43
sdurkin wrote: post #38

Female Programmer Privilege Checklist: Guilting every male programmer for both real and imagined slights. The beauty of startups is that no one cares who or what you are, so long as you can deliver. So stop complaining , AND BUILD SOMETHING ALREADY.

Sure, "so long as you can deliver". Are we going to be treated equally when we fail? Even worse, are we going to be treated as representatives of half the species (someone's already linked to that XKCD cartoon). It may be paranoia, but it doesn't help. PS. Mostly I try not to guilt my co-workers about stuff. I don't think it makes them or me any more productive.

Failure is an important step towards mastering. Sure hell you are going to be treated equally from the professional standpoint if you have the courage to fail a couple of times.

It depends wholly on if and how you play the gender-card in the game. Or how you can be coerced/forced to play it.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#47

Post by msluyter »

likpok wrote: post #32
_cbsz wrote: post #12

What is the goal of this checklist, other than causing a series of individual guilt trips for a gender imbalance that results from societal factors and/or legitimate gender predispositions for/against our field? What are we supposed to do ? Do these people think we don't wish there were more women in the field? Also, I'm sure the ensuing discussion is going to resemble at least three other HN discussions.

So, if you pay attention to history, you can see that there isn't actually a predisposition which affects this. In the 1980's, about half[1] of computer scientists were women. Now? 10-20%. Something is being done, and it is being done wrong. So it's not as simple as "They don't want to" or "Society makes them". [1] I believe it to be about half. However, it might be slightly more or less. Definitely far higher than t…

Here's an article from the NY Times that goes into this in some detail, although there appears to be no single compelling explanation:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/16/business/16digi.html

One thing that the article notes is that women have achieved parity in other technical fields:

"When all science and engineering fields are considered, the percentage of bachelor’s degree recipients who are women has improved to 51 percent in 2004-5 from 39 percent in 1984-85, according to National Science Foundation surveys."

I find it rather hard to believe that software professionals are especially sexist compared to those in other engineering fields, thus I tend to think that other factors -- a reputation for grueling work hours, the "nerd factor", perceived drop in availability of jobs due to outsourcing, etc... -- are driving women away.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#48

Post by msluyter »

j_baker wrote: post #3
stavrianos wrote: post #2

As a man, I'd like to point out that I really can't help sexualizing basically anything. Studies have shown that straight men will ogle other men if they've got chest. Frankly, I don't like how it can hang over everything either, but I do my best to minimize it. If anyone can actually propose a solution to this "problem", great, but otherwise can we collectively move on?

I'd just like to point out that I also am a man and I don't have your problem. I have the capability of keeping my professional work environment professional .

I don't think the parent necessarily implied that he couldn't be professional. Rather, perhaps, it requires some conscious attention to avoid oogling or whatnot. I applaud the honesty, myself.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#49

Post by tayssir »

rw140 wrote: post #43
sdurkin wrote: post #38

Female Programmer Privilege Checklist: Guilting every male programmer for both real and imagined slights. The beauty of startups is that no one cares who or what you are, so long as you can deliver. So stop complaining , AND BUILD SOMETHING ALREADY.

Sure, "so long as you can deliver". Are we going to be treated equally when we fail? Even worse, are we going to be treated as representatives of half the species (someone's already linked to that XKCD cartoon). It may be paranoia, but it doesn't help. PS. Mostly I try not to guilt my co-workers about stuff. I don't think it makes them or me any more productive.

I'm reminded of Smolin's _The Trouble with Physics_:

> Note that whereas there have always been talented women musicians, the number of women hired by orchestras rose significantly when candidates began auditioning behind a screen. This is why there is affirmative action. In all my experience, I have never seen a woman or an African American hired through an affirmative-action program who didn't strongly deserve it -- that is, who wasn't already arguably the best applicant. When hiring committees are no longer composed only of white men and we stop hearing expressions of open prejudice, then we can relax affirmative action. As it stands, people who are different -- who, for one reason or another, make powerful older male physicists uncomfortable -- are not hired.

(This was in the context of an argument about how physics institutions often filter out challengers to orthodoxy: including those who think differently, not just look differently.)

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#50

Post by maethorechannen »

schleyfox wrote: post #18

> Never being described as a "hot guy" first and a competent professional second. Oh Really? http://www.flickr.com/photos/46457493@N00/230535210/ > Having potential romantic partners assume from your career that you're smart and well-to-do rather than unattractive and unfeeling. Unattractive, unfeeling, AND with neck beard is our stereotype. > Joining in appreciation of the sex object du jour without having to be gay…

I'd like to add

> Having your desk near the entrance to your office without visitors assuming you're the receptionist.

I'm male, I've had the desk near the entrance and guess what - I got treated like a recptionist too. It's not gender, it's that your the first person people come across.

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