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Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

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Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#311
post #200
post #2

I just posted this to Tim's Blog: --------------------- It seems probable that soylent is better than much of the manufactured food on the market. It also seems unlikely that soylent is better than quality whole food. I take Nassim Taleb's approach. We don’t know what we don’t know about food. I’d like to address two of Shane’s points. I'm listing the objections Shane raises, then his reply: Shane's first point: Obje…

> We would have discovered poisonous or second order effects long ago. Here's an easy counterpoint to that: Which mushrooms are poisonous? The answer is: We don't really know. We know a tiny subset that we know we have not been able to implicate in any harmful effects. So far. We also know a number of mushrooms that are lethal uncooked and unless cooked in certain ways (commonly you have to boil off the poisons) and…

> We would have discovered poisonous or second order effects long ago...Here's an easy counterpoint to that:...mushrooms

Enh. Not so much. Just the fact that we know mushrooms are often poisonous is useful, actionable knowledge by itself.

Traditional diets generally work. They have stood the test of time. The extent to which they are harmful long term can be studied effectively because we have potential access to lots of data.

> the history of identifying dangerous mushrooms have amply demonstrated that people have trouble connecting cause and effect in terms of diet

Folklore isn't perfect, but it is effective to some extent. Given enough time in a large enough population, it does well enough. I have no fundamental problem with engineered foods. It's the complexity of the systems involved, the potentially high stakes, the questionable incentives of the producers, and the comparative paucity of data that bother me. Now that we have billions on the planet and many hundreds of millions living 1st world lives, maybe we'll make some inroads here as well.

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#312
post #306
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't silly nonsense like that supposed to be reserved for reddit? You are of course fully aware that I, and everyone else in this discussion, is over the age of 1. How is 13% of one micronutrient and 65% of another balanced? In order to get complete micronutrient coverage from ensure, you have to drink 5 a day, putting you at risk of overexposure to manganese assuming you drink water still.

Ahh, ok your assuming nutrients all need to hit exactly 100% each day to be heathy. The reality is perfection changes with age, Heath issues, pregnancy, sun exposure, body weight, and a host of other issues. However, close enough is plenty to stay in good heath. So, while there is no diet that works equally well for a nursing mother and a sedendary accountant both can stay heathy eating just rice and a multivitamin o…

No, I am not assuming anything. I gave you a specific real example of an actual problem. Do you have anything constructive to add to the discussion, or did you just want to provide an example of the kind of deliberately dishonest hand-waving I was referring to?

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#313
post #87
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll just say this: I hate cooking, and ordering delivery every night, while easy, isn't ideal (cost, etc.). Eating delicious, real food every once in a while is a great treat, but why the hell do I have to put so much energy into this ritual of choosing/preparing/acquiring meals every single day of my life ? Sometimes I just don't want to be hungry, and I don't really care how I get not-hungry. I'm withholding judge…

Buy a crate of MREs.

MREs are pretty expensive. I saw some boxes of MREs at a commissary on a Navy base a little while back, and the per-unit cost was something staggering like $9 a piece.

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#314
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This contradiction between user-experience and reality apparently forms the basis for many user/developers’ belief that the keyboard is faster. Interesting article. I'm sure the $50M in studies were of non-power users, though, and so irrelevant for developers with sufficiently powerful keyboard shortcuts. I can guarantee it doesn't take me 2 seconds for my top 20 keyboard shortcuts, any more than it takes 2 seconds…

> I can guarantee it doesn't take me 2 seconds for my top 20 keyboard shortcuts, From observing developers I've worked with over the years, I doubt most developers know more keyboard shortcuts than "normal people". In fact, I've come to realise just how appallingly bad most of us are at using our tools.

>In fact, I've come to realise just how appallingly bad most of us are at using our tools.

I don't disagree. I know developers who use Notepad to develop, which boggles the mind.

In fact, I don't know why I bothered posting. I'm enough of an outlier in keyboard performance that, even if I'm right, it proves nothing. I've had many developers' jaws hit the floor as they watch over my shoulder. I've even shocked vi and emacs users into no longer trying to convince me their ways were better.

Maybe I should teach a class on how to use a GUI efficiently.

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#315

"Rob is a Y Combinator alumnus with professional experience in electrical engineering, computer science and entrepreneurship. Lacking the means to produce cheap energy, he invented a form of fusion as a more efficient approach to powering his home and hopes to use it to reduce the global disparity of electrification." On one hand, the entire field of nutritional science (and several associated topics), coupled with a…

> Oh, and don't forget the world's militaries, who throw enormous amounts of money at research groups for anything even remotely useful and for who full meal replacements would be a holy grail.

Not a good objection, because for military purposes, Soylent is completely unacceptable. How well do the ingredients tolerate extremes of heat and cold, no access to a kitchen, being stored in crates for months or years...? Not too well. And those are just the obvious requirements for an MRE.

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#316
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've missed the point of fast. It's not about attentive time, it's about total time and not cooking. What you suggest fails on all counts. People who want fast want it because they're in a hurry, often because they're running late for something. They don't have time to boil water or prep a steak. Love my foreman, but it takes a solid 4 minutes cook time and 10 minutes rest time to make a proper steak, that's not fa…

> They don't have time to boil water I refuse to live a life where I regularly cannot find time to boil water. That's just absolute insanity. > but it takes a solid 4 minutes cook time and 10 minutes rest time to make a proper steak, that's not fast. If we're comparing it against eating soylent, then I don't think resting it is going to be vital. An unrested steak is still tasty, which means we're talking about 4 min…

> I refuse to live a life where I regularly cannot find time to boil water. That's just absolute insanity.

That's fine for you; others don't want to have to take that time just to refuel. We don't all think of eating as an event or a treat, it's often just a burden of being biological.

> An unrested steak is still tasty, which means we're talking about 4 minutes.

Then we seriously disagree about the proper way to make a steak. :)

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This contradiction between user-experience and reality apparently forms the basis for many user/developers’ belief that the keyboard is faster. Interesting article. I'm sure the $50M in studies were of non-power users, though, and so irrelevant for developers with sufficiently powerful keyboard shortcuts. I can guarantee it doesn't take me 2 seconds for my top 20 keyboard shortcuts, any more than it takes 2 seconds…

> I'm sure the $50M in studies were of non-power users, though, and so irrelevant for developers with sufficiently powerful keyboard shortcuts. I can guarantee it doesn't take me 2 seconds for my top 20 keyboard shortcuts, any more than it takes 2 seconds for me to hit "return" at the end of a line, or to move around with arrow keys. Without measuring it A/B I cannot guarantee anything. Those people were just as sure…

>Without measuring it A/B I cannot guarantee anything.

You don't need to guarantee anything; I know my navigation and coding are way faster my way than if I were to ignore my shortcuts.

>And I don't think they were keyboard un-savvy

As a sister comment to your mentions, MOST users, even developers, are still extremely limited in the number of keyboard shortcuts they use. I'm an outlier.

If I want to save, my fingers hit Ctrl-S before I could even FIND where the mouse pointer is on the screen. Same with Ctrl-A for Select All. Or Shift-Ctrl-Left for select the previous word. No A-B testing required; it's seconds using the mouse for any of those, and 300-700ms for the keyboard.

And those aren't even my most powerful shortcuts; they're just the ones ANYONE can use on Windows. If you get into "complete this word from [above/below] in this file", "jump to definition of this function" or "show references for this function", or "jump to previous bookmark", or "set bookmark" even, all of these are sub-500ms key sequences that would all take longer than a second if I had to use a mouse. It's not even close.

Part of the problem with the study is that it was comparing using shortcuts vs. mouse on the Mac, where shortcuts are far less useful than they are on Windows. Navigating through menus by keyboard is easier for me with the keyboard on Windows as well; that's not even an option on Mac.

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#318
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don't have time to boil water I refuse to live a life where I regularly cannot find time to boil water. That's just absolute insanity. > but it takes a solid 4 minutes cook time and 10 minutes rest time to make a proper steak, that's not fast. If we're comparing it against eating soylent, then I don't think resting it is going to be vital. An unrested steak is still tasty, which means we're talking about 4 min…

> I refuse to live a life where I regularly cannot find time to boil water. That's just absolute insanity. That's fine for you; others don't want to have to take that time just to refuel. We don't all think of eating as an event or a treat, it's often just a burden of being biological. > An unrested steak is still tasty, which means we're talking about 4 minutes. Then we seriously disagree about the proper way to mak…

> We don't all think of eating as an event or a treat, it's often just a burden of being biological.

Boiling a kettle is so burdensome it's only done by those looking for a treat or some special event?

I'd understand if we were talking about preparing a roast (I still think that takes very little time out of a day), but boiling a kettle or frying a steak? These are things that can be done while thinking, reading, playing air guitar.

I mean seriously we're talking about very small parts of a day here.

> Then we seriously disagree about the proper way to make a steak. :)

Well we're talking about people who seem to find boiling an egg such an ordeal they're giving up food altogether as it's a "burden of being biological", I don't think the difference is going to be a deal-breaker.

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#319
post #87
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll just say this: I hate cooking, and ordering delivery every night, while easy, isn't ideal (cost, etc.). Eating delicious, real food every once in a while is a great treat, but why the hell do I have to put so much energy into this ritual of choosing/preparing/acquiring meals every single day of my life ? Sometimes I just don't want to be hungry, and I don't really care how I get not-hungry. I'm withholding judge…

Buy a crate of MREs.

Good way to get constipated and bored at mealtimes.

Re: Soylent: What Happened When I Stopped Eating For 2 Weeks

#320
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I refuse to live a life where I regularly cannot find time to boil water. That's just absolute insanity. That's fine for you; others don't want to have to take that time just to refuel. We don't all think of eating as an event or a treat, it's often just a burden of being biological. > An unrested steak is still tasty, which means we're talking about 4 minutes. Then we seriously disagree about the proper way to mak…

> We don't all think of eating as an event or a treat, it's often just a burden of being biological. Boiling a kettle is so burdensome it's only done by those looking for a treat or some special event? I'd understand if we were talking about preparing a roast (I still think that takes very little time out of a day), but boiling a kettle or frying a steak? These are things that can be done while thinking, reading, pla…

Do you fail to understand what "in a hurry" means? Slapping together a sandwich is fast, microwaving something is fast, cooking is not fast. I could be out the door before the water even warms up.

> Well we're talking about people who seem to find boiling an egg such an ordeal they're giving up food altogether as it's a "burden of being biological", I don't think the difference is going to be a deal-breaker.

Yes it would be, eating a meal replacement doesn't change the way I like my food prepared and an un-rested steak is just awful IMHO.

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