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Don't reinvent the scrollbar

bbrks.me

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Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#151

Post by Too »

Knowing where the comments start could be solved with a highlighted scrollbar. Such as are common in programming IDE's, Eclipse for example puts one color where every TODO is and another color for mark occurances etc. Just put a colored marking or a small arrow even at the scrollbar-position where the comments start.

Or why not put one at each heading of the page.

Implementing this accurately on a web page with js is a bit tricky since most browsers display progress bars differently. The biggest problem is if it has tiny arrows at both ends or only on one side. You will get a few pixels off if you try to match the native scroll bar. Another option is to put a second scroll bar next to the native one that is annotated, I've found this to be the most reliable option.

An API from the browser to get help from the native scroll bar, or to enhance the native scroll bar would be great.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#152

Post by nsxwolf »

bhauer wrote: post #27
mietek wrote: post #13

I was nodding along, when suddenly... > One alternative is to ignore iOS and OS X users. But that’s not very nice. There are many scrolling libraries available that you can use, such as NiceScroll. > Or you can just make your own indicator like the one seen at the very start of the article. Just don’t use a horizontal indicator for vertical progression :) No! Do not do this. Just stop. Stop reinventing and reimplemen…

Agreed. Not to put to fine a point on it, but if your user is on iOS or OS X, they are accustomed to losing sight of their progress because, as the article says, "Apple knows best." Going out of your way as a content author to correct for the user interface quirks of the reader's preferred reading environment seems extraordinary and unnecessary. Presumably a non-trivial number of iOS and OS X users actually like the…

I use the default scroll bars setting in OS X (Show scrollbars automatically based on mouse or trackpad movement), and I'm never not aware of the page length.

I see it whenever I switch tabs, and I see it whenever I start to scroll. I always have an idea of how long the page is and I don't need a constant reminder of it. It's not like it's a precision instrument anyway - who can precisely gauge the length of an article based on scroll bar length and current window size? Rain Man?

I can switch back to the always-on behavior if I want to, but I haven't wanted to.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#153

Post by coldtea »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #132
coldtea wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My argument is that having this specific option is a mistake. That's a belief. I don't see any argument here. Why is it a mistake? Perhaps modern users, not tied to a legacy of scrollbars, could not care less about them? Perhaps 95% of users (with the exception of hackers) not even use them or notice them when they are there? > Those people are not designers, and should not ever be put in the position of designing…

See argument upstream- in summary, autohiding scrollbars: Pros: Looks tidier sometimes Cons: Causes frustration and confusion. My question is: whose lives have been significantly improved by the addition of this feature? why does it exist? > Whereas you are? yes > And we should take your opinion on scrollbars over Apple designer's one, because? because I am right and Apple is wrong. On top of that, the reaction to my…

>because I am right and Apple is wrong.

A, ok then. Case closed.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#154

Post by x0054 »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #137
x0054 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am of an opinion that one only needs a scroll bar when scrolling. On OSX the scroll bars are always visible when scrolling. You think you know better, and would like to overwrite my preference with yours. I don't think we will ever agree. I like options you like rules.

What does autohiding the scrollbars add to your life? How does it improve it? You avoid this question. You have no answer. On the other hand, the presence of this option causes confusion and frustration, and, one could argue, significant economic harm as a result of the confusion and frustration. Why is your preference (which you have not, and possibly cannot explain) more important than the confusion and frustration…

I think you have a strong preference in this case, and you wish to force your preference upon people in the name of the "common good." I'll let you figure out the definition of that behavior all on your own.

Instead of arguing about your clear authoritarian tendencies, here is my main reasons why I think hiding scroll bars is a good idea:

1. Information Overload: You should only show user information when they need it. Users need to know how much of the document is remaining, or where they are currently located, when they are scrolling. If they need the data, they are but a touch away from it.

2. Scroll Bars create anxiety in users who are actually reading your website. If you are under slight time pressure, as most of us are at all times, you will concentrate on your own progress through the page, rather then engaging with the content.

3. Shifting: Even on operating systems where it is the convention to always show the scroll bar, the scroll bar still disappears when there is no scrollable content. Many, websites are centered, and they have a tendency to shift the center of the website by the width of the website when the scrollbar appears and disappears. I find that behavior annoying.

4. Shifting in text boxes: when the scroll bar appears, once you typed enough text to fill the box, the text has to reflow, in order to accommodate the new scroll bar. I find this very annoying and distracting.

Finally, you keep referring to these mythical, internally confused people who keep reading only the tops of all the news articles and constantly wonder why the rest is cut off. Can you show me the following:

1. Any site that looks confusing on a mac without scroll bars. Something I can show to people and gauge their reaction.

2. Any study, article, or survey done on the subject that states that it's a severe problem. Not personal anecdotes, but actual evidence of some kind.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#155

Post by mathattack »

I had a client in the telecom industry some years ago who had a project that was re-writing built in scroll bar technology because a few of the execs didn't like the scroll bars available in Windows.

Needless to say the project was years behind. I'm glad I never got too close to it.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#156

Post by Corvus »

minikites wrote: post #149
super_mario wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would go even further and say that the lack of scroll bar in OS X has lead to lower uptake of read material. Here is what scroll bar does for me: 1. It gives me instant feedback about the size of the document (the shorter the scrollbar the bigger the document). 2. It shows me rough position in the document. 3. Provides reading context (I'm 35% into the document and I'm reading on subject X) which aids memorizing th…

I agree for plain documents, but tons of online articles list comments on the same page, so the scroll bar is almost a negative incentive to keep reading. "I've read this much of the article and I'm only 1/20th of the way down?" [user stops reading, unaware that there's 450 comments and the article is actually pretty short]

I think comments themselves are the “negative incentive”, not the scroll bar. If comments were as informative and well-written as the article, then including them in the total article length is what you want because you would also want to read them.

But, as we all know, comments are usually total garbage. The problem is not that they get included in the scroll bar, but that they get included with the article. We need to fix, or remove comments, not scroll bars.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#157

Post by tracker1 »

minikites wrote: post #149
super_mario wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would go even further and say that the lack of scroll bar in OS X has lead to lower uptake of read material. Here is what scroll bar does for me: 1. It gives me instant feedback about the size of the document (the shorter the scrollbar the bigger the document). 2. It shows me rough position in the document. 3. Provides reading context (I'm 35% into the document and I'm reading on subject X) which aids memorizing th…

I agree for plain documents, but tons of online articles list comments on the same page, so the scroll bar is almost a negative incentive to keep reading. "I've read this much of the article and I'm only 1/20th of the way down?" [user stops reading, unaware that there's 450 comments and the article is actually pretty short]

Apparently you didn't RTFA... easy, hide the comments until you reach them.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#158

Post by mercer »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #49
bhauer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Not to put to fine a point on it, but if your user is on iOS or OS X, they are accustomed to losing sight of their progress because, as the article says, "Apple knows best." Going out of your way as a content author to correct for the user interface quirks of the reader's preferred reading environment seems extraordinary and unnecessary. Presumably a non-trivial number of iOS and OS X users actually like the…

It's my preferred reading environment, but I hate that apple made this decision, because, as my sibling commenter here noted, it's outright user hostile. Apple never really totally understood the "visibility" requirement of usable interfaces. They like to hide things to make them look pretty, and it only leads to better advertising, not better interfaces. Thankfully there's still a setting to always show scrollbars.…

I respect your choice, but I think it's unfair in this case specifically (but in many other cases too) to say it's about 'pretty' and 'better advertising'.

I read a lot on my mac, and I love the lack of scrollbar. It's one less 'element' on my reading experience (similar to almost all ebook readers not having chrome, like scrollbars and page numbers, or hiding chrome unless specifically requested). And because of how integral and 'decent' using the touchpad is (two finger scroll), I automatically scroll briefly to show the scrollbar in those few instances where I care about what position on the page I'm at.

Of course, that's just one example, but I know many others who feel similarly. 'Apple knows best' doesn't just mean marketing and pretty, it often means decent choices that are good for a large percentage of people, and yes, you have to accept that.

I find apple does do a lot of stuff that doesn't work for me. Even the lack scroll bars I rather hate when I use Finder (and don't get me started on that!). I use an android phone for that very reason.

I don't always like the choices that apple makes for me, and I might reach a point where I opt out completely. I'm just saying that in this case I think apple made a risky but decent choice, that wasn't just about 'pretty' or 'marketing'.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#159

Post by TheZenPsycho »

Gormo wrote: post #148
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Design is how it works. Not how it looks. How it looks is properly called "style". If you have found a "Designer" who is overly concerned with how it looks and not so much how it works, the conclusion to reach is that you have found a bad designer, not that all "designers" are concerned only with aesthetics.

If "design" is meant to refer to how things work rather than how they look, then it's clear that the majority of people talking about "design" with respect to software UIs are using the term incorrectly. People who call themselves "designers" in this context, and at the present moment, generally are prioritizing screenshot aesthetics over functional utility, and we're getting worse software because of it.

Well you're not wrong about that. The word "design" and "designer" is vastly misunderstood by everyone, including many of the people who go around calling themselves "designers". It's like the problem the programming industry has with people applying to jobs, calling themselves "programmers", and who can't code the most basic things.

Except, that in the case of the designers, since the person giving the interview also does not know what design actually entails, they get hired.

The situation has led to actual designers inventing a new title to give themselves "UX", which I predict will also quickly get watered down to mean basically nothing.

It's kind of really sad. and frustrating.

Another problem is a real designer, calling themselves a designer, gets hired by an organisation that has the wrong idea about what a designer does, and so gets pigeonholed out of any important decision making processes, and only is allowed to be involved at the very end of the process.

A very good designer can get around this, but they often don't have much power in the organisation to do anything about this pigeonholing.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#160

Post by TheZenPsycho »

3825 wrote: post #133
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what "some people" argue is irrelevant here. Who are "some people" anyway? "Apple provides entirely too many user options" is not in any way the argument I've made. My argument is that having this specific option is a mistake. If you want the generalised form of that argument, it is: 1. this, and other "preferences" are not arbitrary or meaningless. They have real consequences (even if the only real consequence is mi…

We actually like to give choices so we don't have to make decisions. Making decisions without seeking like an arrogant asshole is difficult.

yeah, designers/programmers need to learn to spine-up, and make decisions instead of just leaving everything up to the user, even if it's just better defaults, and leaving a .ini file around for the people who desperately need to change something.
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