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I will not do a tech interview

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Re: I will not do a tech interview

#81

Post by concernedctzn »

crazygringo wrote: post #62

Granted, there are a lot of bad tech interviews out there (asking about algorithms that nobody ever uses) ... but I do not understand this. Imagine someone's being hired for a front-end position, and we don't have months to get them up to speed. I'm going to ask them to explain how a closure works. How they deal with AJAX. What they think about "!important". Things to be careful about with floats. How CSS precedence/…

> if you freeze up in interviews, are you also going to freeze up in developer meetings?

No, the examples you listed are very different settings. An interview is far from a casual conversation, no matter the tone of your voice. An outsider is trying to prove themself to the group, they are under direct scrutiny at all times. One mistake can widely swing the interviewer's impression and cost them the job. No matter how many times you tell them to relax, certain people get into a feedback loop and it freezes them into inaction. Once part of the team being criticized for their code from other developers or clients is much less stressful, it's something they're ready to deal with. They are held with a certain level of respect for even being part of the group at all, and much less likely to lose the job/get fired in such a setting so the stakes are nowhere near as high.

Re: I will not do a tech interview

#82

Post by ianstallings »

This is interesting and I like the small contract up front, I've done that myself, but I would say that performance anxiety is real and can be treated using not just medications but training your brain to recognize and work through it. My entire career I've been plagued with anxiety issues and have worked through them with help from doctors, reading a lot on the topic, and talking with others that have similar issues. There was a time when I would freeze up just talking one on one with someone. Now I'm capable of giving presentations to rooms full of executives. It is a never ending struggle and I still get nervous. But I can't let it spiral out of control to a anxiety feedback-loop.

My point? Don't just ignore the problem of anxiety when it cripples your life. Address it head on and try to work through it. It will help your life greatly if you can.

Re: I will not do a tech interview

#83

Post by YZF »

crazygringo wrote: post #62

Granted, there are a lot of bad tech interviews out there (asking about algorithms that nobody ever uses) ... but I do not understand this. Imagine someone's being hired for a front-end position, and we don't have months to get them up to speed. I'm going to ask them to explain how a closure works. How they deal with AJAX. What they think about "!important". Things to be careful about with floats. How CSS precedence/…

I'll try to turn the table on you. Pick some particular technology that you don't hold in your head. three.js, Angular, Bootstrap, canvas, WebRT - whatever. I'm sure among those we'll find some details you don't have in your head right now and you will look up some APIs/details. Now I'll structure my interview around those topics which I happen to hold in my head since we use them all the time.

I am not a front-end web developer at all. I play with some front-end stuff occasionally. But if I had to work in that area I'm sure I could pick it up very quickly and become very effective. I think you need to differentiate between things people can read up on a day and catch up and things that are more fundamental to how they think and learn.

Re: I will not do a tech interview

#84

Post by dspillett »

> I politely suggest that a short contract job might be the best option for a company to evaluate a senior developer

Nice idea. Though I hope you don't expect to be given high priority stuff or be paid a full senior dev's wage during this short contract before which I don't know your abilities as I've not had some other chance to assess them.

Of course an active public portfolio helps here, as potential employers can get some idea of your output from that, but we can't truly rely on it as it can be faked (or be misleading for far more equitable reasons).

Re: I will not do a tech interview

#85

Post by btilly »

crazygringo wrote: post #62

Granted, there are a lot of bad tech interviews out there (asking about algorithms that nobody ever uses) ... but I do not understand this. Imagine someone's being hired for a front-end position, and we don't have months to get them up to speed. I'm going to ask them to explain how a closure works. How they deal with AJAX. What they think about "!important". Things to be careful about with floats. How CSS precedence/…

The problem is that interviews are high stress affairs. Stress produces adrenaline. One of adrenaline's known effects is to prepare us for "fight or flight", meaning that higher order logic is shut off, digestion is shut off, our senses sharpen, reactions improve. This is great when you've got to climb a tree to get away from a tiger. This is horrible if you are trying to demonstrate your ability to function mentally.

Different people differ in how strong this effect is for them in an interview. I'm unusual - I actually relax. Whereas the author of this article tenses up. And, of course, once you're tense and you notice that you just flubbed something obvious, then you tense up even more. Leading negative reinforcing cycle. And if you experience this in one interview, you'll experience it in the next.

It does not matter how reasonable your questions are. If this is what someone faces, you do not get an accurate picture of how good anyone with interview anxiety is. And a lot of people suffer from this. The author of this article to an extreme degree.

Re: I will not do a tech interview

#86

Post by jnbiche »

[deleted] wrote: post #68
jnbiche wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you not understand that there might be people who can complete your task easily, yet who have extreme anxiety about interviews? I actually understand this issue -- I've been trying to switch careers into programming for the past year. I've know several languages well (Python, JavaScript, some C), can use git, and have a few decently impressive projects on my Github profile. I also contribute to a pretty well-know…

[deleted]

Well, that is pretty offensive. You're calling me incompetent, whereas I'm definitely a competent person. I did well in school (3.6 GPA in a good college), finished a master's degree, and have done well in an established, albeit dying, profession, including speaking at conferences and writing for trade publications (and even co-wrote an article for a peer-reviewed journal, which is unusual for my profession). If you're referring to my programming chops, well, I think it's pretty impressive that I taught myself to code in my 30s, and that I am now very comfortable in Python, JavaScript, and (to a lesser extent) C and Lua. I even play around with languages like Haskell and Ada for fun. I taught myself git, built several large web applications (which are part of my portfolio), and have almost finished a complex Android application (thus adding basic Java to my list of languages). I've unfortunately not yet had the opportunity to be mentored by someone more experienced than me, or participate in a large team-driven project, which I realize is now holding me back from the next level of programming expertise.

I could make similar presumptions about you based on your response, but since I don't know you at all, I'll refrain.

Re: I will not do a tech interview

#87

Post by btilly »

tocomment wrote: post #37
300bps wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I do not see how you can lose if you take the contract-to-hire approach I agree with most of what you said, but one way you can lose if you insist on contract-to-hire is that you are filtering out a portion of the highest quality candidates who are only interested in immediate full time hiring.

I don't think many candidates are interested in "immediate" hiring. Most people I know need to take extra time to wait for other offers to come in. It also gives the candidate a way to see what kind of problems he'd be working with, and the quality of the code-base, working conditions, etc. I think it's a win-win.

Many candidates with current jobs that they would like to leave are only interested in immediate hiring. They do not have the luxury to take several days off of their existing job for a tiny contract which might or might not land them a job that they might or might not prove to want.

One size definitely does not fit all here.

Re: I will not do a tech interview

#88

Post by edw519 »

Ike, I understand your reasoning and admire the stand you've taken, but please don't do this. You're hurting yourself and the rest of us, too. Let me explain...

I may be one of the most contrary programmers here on HN when it comes to this subject. I have never shared code or given references before a job offer and I never will. I believe that reviewing code that's already been written has far too much risk for any benefit; permissions may be required, explanations are often needed (but never given the opportunity), and most of all, taken out of context. I want a prospective employer to do their own work to evaluate me, one on one, without depending on other code or others' opinions. I will do whatever it takes to help them do this, including interviews, meetings, and yes, coding for them.

As an interviewer, I have used many tools to get to know the interviewee, but the coding exercise has alway been, by far, the most important. If you can code, great. If you can't, I'll find out. If you struggle, no problem, we'll work through it. But I have to know, otherwise we can't move on.

The trial project is a great idea, but for many reasons, it's not an option for many employers.

Do whatever it takes to get past the roadblock of not being able to do a tech interview. There are plenty of resources to do that. If you struggle and your interviewer is a jerk, then no problem: you didn't want to work there anyway. If you struggle and your interviewer helps both of you to solve the problem, then you've both learned a lot about each other.

(Also, please try to avoid language like "I will not...". Except for murder and ethical issues, this will probably hurt more than it will help.)

Re: I will not do a tech interview

#89

Post by mathattack »

As you had alluded references (and professional reputation) is the single biggest predictor of success. This is why resumes tossed over the transom to companies is such an inefficient process.

2nd to references is looking at real work products. You're in advertising? Show me your ads. You build websites, show me your websites.

Your method of short term contracts is a good way to get to both at the same point.

Any thoughts on recruiting college hires? They don't have work products, and in many cases don't know enough to be useful on a project with low guidance.

Re: I will not do a tech interview

#90

Post by SonicSoul »

this is a very good idea.

i've had multiple interviews where i did well on the phone and the tech-out, only to receive a "take home exercise".. with guidelines such as "it will be graded by style and architecture in addition to correctness of function".

This would mean half of my saturday in a coffee shop coding an elaborate solution using latest technology and good patterns.. with some resentment because i just wasted hours of precious (and scarce) free time.

Not only has this never lead to an offer, but in some cases i'd not hear back for weeks, with eventual vague comment like "it was good, but not great" or "it was great, but we decided to go with someone who happened to have more experience in X domain".. that's nice..

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