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'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

theguardian.com

121–130 of 158 posts

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#121
post #2

Folks, take a step back and take a look what is going on here. When you were a child, would any of you have believed that one day in the early 21st century, you would wake up in a world where your own government spies on each and every single citizen, plus whoever is connected to them in another country, where they send agents to newspapers to oppress the freedom of the press? I mean, isn't this almost surreal? Like…

I was born in '91, and grew up under the Internet, and from a very young age (3?) I realized everything that was leaving my home on a network connection was easily recorded and monitored. I never assumed otherwise. Anything I don't want my Internet provider, government, or hostile snooper to know I just don't put online.

I don't think I ever expected any less, since I was raised knowing the horrors and atrocities of the last hundred years between ww2 and the treatment of the Japanese and the cold war and the treatment of pretty much everyone.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#122
post #2

Folks, take a step back and take a look what is going on here. When you were a child, would any of you have believed that one day in the early 21st century, you would wake up in a world where your own government spies on each and every single citizen, plus whoever is connected to them in another country, where they send agents to newspapers to oppress the freedom of the press? I mean, isn't this almost surreal? Like…

I mean, isn't this almost surreal? Like a cheap sci-fi novel has become reality?

Not surreal but I ask the HN community: will this ignite a hacker revolution against the government(s)? At one point the different governments are in a weaker situation since there are a huge amount of cybersecurity attack vectors against them.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#123
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've mistaken me for someone else. Corporations hold more influence with Congress than voters. Google has enormous power, but it lives and dies by its users. If we hold Google accountable to the point it has to act, its lead could trigger a movement among the Internet giants, and that's a mighty big lever.

> The truth of the matter is, corporations hold more influence with Congress than voters. Corporations are convenient fictions. The truth of the matter is individuals with lots of money and connections hold more influence with Congress individuals without lots of money and connections .

Last year Google spent $18,220,000 lobbying Congress -- #8 on the top spenders list (http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?showYear=2012&index...). That's not fiction, but it's a drop in Google's coffers.

And the 2010 Supreme Court decision in Citizens United (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._Federal_Elec...) removed the ban which prevented corporations from using their treasury funds for direct advocacy.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#124
post #78

There are people who've been planning these things all along, just to give you a hint: “The technotronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen and maintain up-to-date complete files containing even the most personal informat…

Brzezinski is Obama's advisor.

Ok, now I really need to throw up.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#125
post #15

Lets condemn places like China, Russia, and Syria for they way they limit or monitor electronic communications but when the US and "Friends" do it its for mumble mumble TERRORISTS mumble mumble.... If the laws don't allow us to monitor our citizens lets just change the laws or interpret the words differently.

Except the US and friends aren't really "doing it" in the same sense that China, Russia, etc are. Those countries develop powerful surveillance capabilities and use them to target political dissent, among other anti-democratic things. Nothing that's been reported about the US comes even close to that sort of usage.

>Nothing that's been reported about the US comes even close to that sort of usage.

Nothing that's been reported. Or Hasn't happened yet....

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#126
post #2

Folks, take a step back and take a look what is going on here. When you were a child, would any of you have believed that one day in the early 21st century, you would wake up in a world where your own government spies on each and every single citizen, plus whoever is connected to them in another country, where they send agents to newspapers to oppress the freedom of the press? I mean, isn't this almost surreal? Like…

> would any of you have believed Yes, honestly. For more than 20 years, the basic message of the cipherpunks and related communities has been that the NSA spends tens of billions of dollars to spy on everything "foreign" that it can possibly get its hands on, and its foreign adversaries are doing the same, so you'd better use PGP (or more) if you want any chance of keeping your communications secret from the governme…

As for the systems themselves, based upon what I've read, I've come to the tentative supposition that their data storage, categorization, and compartmentalization is relatively minimal and undifferentiated. [1]

This would be in line with what we learned about the structure (or rather, lack thereof) of intelligence systems of the State Department and military that allowed Manning to acquire such a broad range of documents undetected.

What I've seen cited of the documents from "agency who shall not be named" appear to describe and show that definitions of and limits upon what is searched for, are largely manually constructed and executed by the human operators performing those searches. "You may search for this OR that, but not both. You may search for this other but only in conjunction (AND) with this other term.

It all reminds me rather of one job I had that involved extensive data mining. I started with a mass of raw detail records and winnowed things down. It was entirely up to me what ended up being winnowed out, and I required both extensive knowledge of the domain and careful and precise execution in order to come up with the correct results.

The whole "unnamed agency" situation has developed rather a similar smell, for me.

As an aside, today when I read about the Manning sentencing, one of my first thoughts was, "Supposing that this prosecution has been 'fair' and 'necessary' (not that I necessarily agree with this supposition), then where is the prosecution and sentencing of those responsible for the criminally negligent design and management of the data intelligence systems he 'exploited'?"

For all its vaunted capabilities, I suspect that data management at the NSA is similarly fucked up, and that there are managers and contractors who should and would, in a fair world, be sent to prison for this.

--

[1] Perhaps with a few exceptions, e.g. for senior government officials and favored members of the private "elite" class, e.g. the C suite and board of Goldman and the like.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#127
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The truth of the matter is, corporations hold more influence with Congress than voters. Corporations are convenient fictions. The truth of the matter is individuals with lots of money and connections hold more influence with Congress individuals without lots of money and connections .

Last year Google spent $18,220,000 lobbying Congress -- #8 on the top spenders list ( http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?showYear=2012&index... ). That's not fiction, but it's a drop in Google's coffers. And the 2010 Supreme Court decision in Citizens United ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._Federal_Elec... ) removed the ban which prevented corporations from using their treasury funds for direct…

I didn't say corporate lobbying was a fiction, I said corporations as independent entities are a convenient fiction; corporations are tools through which individuals exercise power, not real entities that have power of their own.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#128
post #2

Folks, take a step back and take a look what is going on here. When you were a child, would any of you have believed that one day in the early 21st century, you would wake up in a world where your own government spies on each and every single citizen, plus whoever is connected to them in another country, where they send agents to newspapers to oppress the freedom of the press? I mean, isn't this almost surreal? Like…

What do we do about it?

Is it possible to disrupt the government? Somehow create a system that renders them obsolete?

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#129
post #7

"Here is David Miranda explaining to BBC what it's like to be forced to turn over your passwords to security agents who have detained you under a terrorism law, so they can troll through your emails and Facebook account and Skype program while you are detained. Just watch that short video and judge for yourself." As I read this I tried to imagine how to reset my digital life, now that all my passwords are exposed. Yo…

> forced to turn over your passwords Forced, how? Threat of detention beyond the 9 hour window? If so, it's easy to speculate I would call their bluff and refuse. But in the situation, probably not so easy. What about using a hidden volume in TrueCrypt for plausible deniability? [1] I suppose that would work effectively for documents. There's no plausible deniability for stuff like Facebook and Gmail. They can easily…

Yesterday I made the observation that the document he was given in detention said:

"You must answer all questions and hand over any data or documents requested" and

"If you fail to comply you could be prosecuted under ..Terrorism Act."

You have no rights. You will disappear in a very deep, dark hole for a very long time if you try to call their bluff.

Welcome to the Patriot Act/Terrorism Act world.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#130
post #7

"Here is David Miranda explaining to BBC what it's like to be forced to turn over your passwords to security agents who have detained you under a terrorism law, so they can troll through your emails and Facebook account and Skype program while you are detained. Just watch that short video and judge for yourself." As I read this I tried to imagine how to reset my digital life, now that all my passwords are exposed. Yo…

> forced to turn over your passwords Forced, how? Threat of detention beyond the 9 hour window? If so, it's easy to speculate I would call their bluff and refuse. But in the situation, probably not so easy. What about using a hidden volume in TrueCrypt for plausible deniability? [1] I suppose that would work effectively for documents. There's no plausible deniability for stuff like Facebook and Gmail. They can easily…

> Threat of detention beyond the 9 hour window?

No, the threat of 2 years in jail.

"The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA), Part III, activated by ministerial order in October 2007, requires persons to supply decrypted information and/or keys to government representatives. Failure to disclose carries a maximum penalty of two years in jail."(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_Kingd...).

TrueCrypt is no escape if they have reasonable suspicion there is a hidden volume. And you will have to prove that there isn't one.

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