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'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

theguardian.com

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Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#101

Post by xhrpost »

espeed wrote: post #61
yenoham wrote: post #19

When articles like this are submitted to HN, can we have a discussion on what us as individuals can actually do (if anything)? I'd rather drop 100 comments on general FEELING towards the news, for 1 or 2 comments suggesting 'Let's create a campaign site' or 'There is nothing we can do, lets just sit here in silence' Edit: For what it's worth my ONLY suggestion is that a campaign site similar to that for SOPA, etc. is…

Google was founded on the principle of "Don't be evil", it has the power and influence to effect change, and it helped lead the charge against SOPA. Why is Google so silent now? "He who has the ability to act on an injustice, but who stands idly by, is just as guilty as he who holds the knife." How Google handles this will be its defining moment. This is could be an opportunity for Google to win the world over by sho…

> Why is Google so silent now?

Because they are legally required to be silent. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732394990457853...

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#102

Post by drzaiusapelord »

rainsford wrote: post #23
wil421 wrote: post #15

Lets condemn places like China, Russia, and Syria for they way they limit or monitor electronic communications but when the US and "Friends" do it its for mumble mumble TERRORISTS mumble mumble.... If the laws don't allow us to monitor our citizens lets just change the laws or interpret the words differently.

Except the US and friends aren't really "doing it" in the same sense that China, Russia, etc are. Those countries develop powerful surveillance capabilities and use them to target political dissent, among other anti-democratic things. Nothing that's been reported about the US comes even close to that sort of usage.

If FISA makes it illegal to discuss who is getting threatened via secret court orders, how would you remotely know if there are or aren't any chilling affects?

This is an important part of this argument. When we make it illegal to discuss the crime, the warrant, and have secret court proceedings, you can't just sit there on your high horse and tell us there is no abuse. You are not allowed to know of any abuse.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#103

Post by espeed »

ajays wrote: post #91
espeed wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google was founded on the principle of "Don't be evil", it has the power and influence to effect change, and it helped lead the charge against SOPA. Why is Google so silent now? "He who has the ability to act on an injustice, but who stands idly by, is just as guilty as he who holds the knife." How Google handles this will be its defining moment. This is could be an opportunity for Google to win the world over by sho…

"Dear Google, please save us!" You might as well have said, "Dear God, please save us!" Sorry, but you won't be saved by any corporate entity; they're in bed with the surveillance state anyways. It is people like us, yes, you included, who have to take up the baton and run with it. Here are things you can do: - Talk to your non-techie friends, and bring them up to speed - Explain to them why "giving up rights for tem…

You've mistaken me for someone else.

Corporations hold more influence with Congress than voters. Google has enormous power, but it lives and dies by its users. If we hold Google accountable to the point it has to act, its lead could trigger a movement among the Internet giants, and that's a mighty big lever.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#104

Post by einhverfr »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #24
kleiba wrote: post #2

Folks, take a step back and take a look what is going on here. When you were a child, would any of you have believed that one day in the early 21st century, you would wake up in a world where your own government spies on each and every single citizen, plus whoever is connected to them in another country, where they send agents to newspapers to oppress the freedom of the press? I mean, isn't this almost surreal? Like…

>When you were a child, would any of you have believed.... Actually, yeah. I read 1984 at age 10, and somehow grokked enough about what that would mean. >Like a cheap sci-fi novel has become reality? Like Orwell, Huxley, Bradbury, with a little Kafka thrown in. I'm not sure "cheap" is the word I'd use here. >I for one am more scared, appaled by what has been bubbling to the surface every week, almost every day since…

> I'm glad that I'm not 'crazy' anymore.

Someone called me 'crazy' today for mentioning the Guardian hard drive story. I wonder.... how many people have blinders on :-(

The thing is I am not convinced the technology is actually good enough to make sense of what they get. They have to decide to look at someone first. This means that it is a way to discredit and jail or worse people who become sufficiently inconvenient to the powers that be.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#105

Post by jasonkolb »

xradionut wrote: post #94
jasonkolb wrote: post #79

This is taking quite a scary turn, but not, I think, in the direction that the governments are intending. Rather than intimidate people into silence they are actively creating a movement of people who are abhorred and appalled by these tactics. Kick that dog enough times and you're going to create an organized movement that can fight back. This is how unrest happens. What I don't think they realize is that the dog th…

"While they may have unlimited financial resources, I would pit unlimited technical resources and creativity against that any day of the week." They are the ones with unlimited technical resources. You don't have armed drones nor biological nor nuclear weapons. You are an hostage like everyone else. You might as well accept that fact for now and just enjoy life.

I have to respectfully disagree. They have unlimited financial resources, which translates into unlimited storage capacity etc. But NOT (IMO) unlimited technical resources in the sense of brainpower and creativity. When I say technical resources I'm referring to the ability to create new tools.

For example, I know for a fact that a large number of intelligence tools are written on top of open source projects. That base did not come from the technical resources of the government (in most cases) but rather the collective ingenuity of the hackers and programmers that built it for various reasons. You can already see projects springing up with the intent of circumventing government technical oversight. This is going to result in an endless game of technical whack-a-mole where one side is motivated by a paycheck and the other is motivated by ideals and the desire for liberty.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#106

Post by TeddyLondon »

padobson wrote: post #28
nwh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see a solution, and I'm assuming that nobody else does really. Citizens and foreigners (like me) have equally little power over what their governments do, just a mild decision between two parties come election time. The general population seems to be apathetic about it all, I don't think I know a single person who has any opinion other than the tired "nothing to hide" line.

Sounds like we need a campaign against the "Nothing to hide" line. You could probably point out to them that there are so many laws now, they probably broke 10 of them before they left for work in the morning.

Start the "Nothing to see" campaign!

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#107

Post by dragonwriter »

espeed wrote: post #103
ajays wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Dear Google, please save us!" You might as well have said, "Dear God, please save us!" Sorry, but you won't be saved by any corporate entity; they're in bed with the surveillance state anyways. It is people like us, yes, you included, who have to take up the baton and run with it. Here are things you can do: - Talk to your non-techie friends, and bring them up to speed - Explain to them why "giving up rights for tem…

You've mistaken me for someone else. Corporations hold more influence with Congress than voters. Google has enormous power, but it lives and dies by its users. If we hold Google accountable to the point it has to act, its lead could trigger a movement among the Internet giants, and that's a mighty big lever.

> The truth of the matter is, corporations hold more influence with Congress than voters.

Corporations are convenient fictions. The truth of the matter is individuals with lots of money and connections hold more influence with Congress individuals without lots of money and connections.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#108

Post by Terretta »

uptown wrote: post #76
espeed wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google was founded on the principle of "Don't be evil", it has the power and influence to effect change, and it helped lead the charge against SOPA. Why is Google so silent now? "He who has the ability to act on an injustice, but who stands idly by, is just as guilty as he who holds the knife." How Google handles this will be its defining moment. This is could be an opportunity for Google to win the world over by sho…

'Google was founded on the principle of "Don't be evil"' I wish people would stop quoting this. It means nothing, and is not binding in any way. It sounded good, and it was a great marketing slogan - but it means absolutely nothing in reality.

On the contrary, it lets Google use Crockford's jslint.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#110

Post by ordinary »

keithwinstein wrote: post #17
kleiba wrote: post #2

Folks, take a step back and take a look what is going on here. When you were a child, would any of you have believed that one day in the early 21st century, you would wake up in a world where your own government spies on each and every single citizen, plus whoever is connected to them in another country, where they send agents to newspapers to oppress the freedom of the press? I mean, isn't this almost surreal? Like…

> would any of you have believed Yes, honestly. For more than 20 years, the basic message of the cipherpunks and related communities has been that the NSA spends tens of billions of dollars to spy on everything "foreign" that it can possibly get its hands on, and its foreign adversaries are doing the same, so you'd better use PGP (or more) if you want any chance of keeping your communications secret from the governme…

The M-x spook feature of emacs is not a new thing!

I was just looking at the code for that, 5 minutes before I read your comment. It was written in May 1987. A comment near the top says "Help defeat the NSA trunk trawler!". It's interesting how our preceptions of this kind of counter-surveillance tool (primitive as it is) has changed from "OK, man, that's just crazy talk" to "Huh, I guess it really is happening!".

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