'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do • Hacker News Board

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#81

Post by Amadou » Wed, Aug 21, 2013, 1:44 PM UTC

rainsford wrote: post #41

kleiba wrote: post #2

Folks, take a step back and take a look what is going on here. When you were a child, would any of you have believed that one day in the early 21st century, you would wake up in a world where your own government spies on each and every single citizen, plus whoever is connected to them in another country, where they send agents to newspapers to oppress the freedom of the press? I mean, isn't this almost surreal? Like…

I certainly get the "cheap sci-fi novel" feeling reading a lot of commentary on the Internet. But honestly, taking a step back and looking at what's actually happening puts things in a much different perspective and makes comments about living in a dystopian future seem more than a little silly. Look at the David Miranda situation. The Internet reaction about living in a police state was immediate, but the rhetoric d…

One key part of the story is that the UK government basically accused Miranda (and Greenwald and Poitras) of aiding terrorists by intending to publish that classified information. That's a hairsbreath away from the charge of aiding the enemy that Manning was (just barely?) found innocent of in the US.

I think that defining news reporting to be aiding the enemy is pretty darn close to a lot of what one sees in sci-fi police states.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#82

Post by espeed » Wed, Aug 21, 2013, 1:45 PM UTC

uptown wrote: post #76

espeed wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google was founded on the principle of "Don't be evil", it has the power and influence to effect change, and it helped lead the charge against SOPA. Why is Google so silent now? "He who has the ability to act on an injustice, but who stands idly by, is just as guilty as he who holds the knife." How Google handles this will be its defining moment. This is could be an opportunity for Google to win the world over by sho…

'Google was founded on the principle of "Don't be evil"' I wish people would stop quoting this. It means nothing, and is not binding in any way. It sounded good, and it was a great marketing slogan - but it means absolutely nothing in reality.

"Don't be evil. We believe strongly that in the long term, we will be better served — as shareholders and in all other ways — by a company that does good things for the world even if we forgo some short term gains" -- Google's 2004 IPO Prospectus (http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~hal/Courses/StratTech09/...).

Binding or not, it's a social contract, and it could mean the world if Google stands by it.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#83

Post by chalst » Wed, Aug 21, 2013, 1:46 PM UTC

rainsford wrote: post #41

kleiba wrote: post #2

Folks, take a step back and take a look what is going on here. When you were a child, would any of you have believed that one day in the early 21st century, you would wake up in a world where your own government spies on each and every single citizen, plus whoever is connected to them in another country, where they send agents to newspapers to oppress the freedom of the press? I mean, isn't this almost surreal? Like…

I certainly get the "cheap sci-fi novel" feeling reading a lot of commentary on the Internet. But honestly, taking a step back and looking at what's actually happening puts things in a much different perspective and makes comments about living in a dystopian future seem more than a little silly. Look at the David Miranda situation. The Internet reaction about living in a police state was immediate, but the rhetoric d…

> the man's journalist husband more or less openly threatens the UK government with the release of more classified information in retaliation

Greenwald goes to lengths to refute this interpretation in the article and elsewhere.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#84

Post by JackpotDen » Wed, Aug 21, 2013, 1:47 PM UTC

rainsford wrote: post #23

wil421 wrote: post #15

Lets condemn places like China, Russia, and Syria for they way they limit or monitor electronic communications but when the US and "Friends" do it its for mumble mumble TERRORISTS mumble mumble.... If the laws don't allow us to monitor our citizens lets just change the laws or interpret the words differently.

Except the US and friends aren't really "doing it" in the same sense that China, Russia, etc are. Those countries develop powerful surveillance capabilities and use them to target political dissent, among other anti-democratic things. Nothing that's been reported about the US comes even close to that sort of usage.

>use them to target political dissent

locking up a dissenter's partner doesn't count, right?

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#85

Post by nicholassmith » Wed, Aug 21, 2013, 1:48 PM UTC

boi_v2 wrote: post #71

nicholassmith wrote: post #58

The British government looks like a farcical bully in this. A playground bruiser that intimidates his way down the hall before promptly slipping over. Destroying the hard drives was an exercise in dominance, 'do as we say or face the consequences' which had no impact (aside from inconvenience and the cost of a couple of Macbook Pros) to The Guardian but has made the UK .gov look foolish. Pulling Miranda, abusing the…

Honestly I don't think the "write to your MP" action would have any result, for me this is just another tool to make people think that Democracy is being exercised, anyway, I am not saying that you shouldn't do it, please do it, but don't stop your actions there because it is just not enough.

It's a piece of the puzzle, it's a way for them to know what the concerns are and they can choose to act or ignore. You're right, it shouldn't just stop there but people should shout from every rooftop even if it's potentially ineffective.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#86

Post by ihsw » Wed, Aug 21, 2013, 1:50 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #45

a3n wrote: post #7

"Here is David Miranda explaining to BBC what it's like to be forced to turn over your passwords to security agents who have detained you under a terrorism law, so they can troll through your emails and Facebook account and Skype program while you are detained. Just watch that short video and judge for yourself." As I read this I tried to imagine how to reset my digital life, now that all my passwords are exposed. Yo…

They already were reading his gmail, if he still used it. What they may have got were his PGP keys, which presumably he was using to talk to his boyfriend. I doubt however he had any real stuff on his laptop. That would be insane for a reporter who seems to have been as careful as Greenwald. Nope, straight forward intimidation. I cannot imagine how they thought it would work, so either we assume the security services…

The difference is low-level thugs were able to get access rather than the automated collection services operated by the GCHQ, so now low-level thugs have his passwords.

The most salient point is how regular individuals are authorized to receive user passwords, and they're able to use them too. The article clearly states that the low-level thugs checked his email within his presence rather than him communicating the passwords to more secure individuals.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#87

Post by DuskStar » Wed, Aug 21, 2013, 1:52 PM UTC

Shish2k wrote: post #56

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously - my take is that it is on PowerPoint . I mean just having "Super secret spy details" on Powerpoint means its not being handled by "our top people". George Smiley is not carefully placing a glass board under his cipher paper before taking a micro-copy. This is spying on everyone, passed around like candy at the middle-managers meeting Its the sheer mundane, ordinariness that has driven it home for me - they…

> just having "Super secret spy details" on Powerpoint means its not being handled by "our top people" So if it was being handled by the top people, they would have outsourced the documentation to a graphic design company, to generate a super-professional looking PDF? (Seriously, how do you expect the high level management to communicate with each other?)

I expect them to communicate in person, or over the phone. You use PowerPoint to distribute information to GROUPS of people, which implies it's more than just high level management that will be seeing the PowerPoint.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#88

Post by zby » Wed, Aug 21, 2013, 1:57 PM UTC

yenoham wrote: post #19

When articles like this are submitted to HN, can we have a discussion on what us as individuals can actually do (if anything)? I'd rather drop 100 comments on general FEELING towards the news, for 1 or 2 comments suggesting 'Let's create a campaign site' or 'There is nothing we can do, lets just sit here in silence' Edit: For what it's worth my ONLY suggestion is that a campaign site similar to that for SOPA, etc. is…

There is this annual event "Freedom not Fear" - which is about fighting the Big Brother - and this year a huge coalition (http://blog.freiheitstattangst.de/bundnispartner-2013/) in Germany and Austria plan demonstrations for the September 7, and other countries will join (Poland and Czech Republic are confirmed): http://wiki.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/Freedom_Not_Fear_2013...

On September 27-30 in Brussels there will be workshops and hearings with MEPs: https://wiki.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/Freedom_Not_Fear_201...

Organize a local event - add it to the list - don't be afraid that it is small, even if not many people come locally - you'll be a part of a global crowd.

Twitter hashtag: #fnf13 IRC: #fnf PirateIRC (irc.piratpartiet.se / irc.piraattipuolue.fi / irc.pirateparty.org.uk)

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#89

Post by dredmorbius » Wed, Aug 21, 2013, 1:58 PM UTC

espeed wrote: post #61

yenoham wrote: post #19

When articles like this are submitted to HN, can we have a discussion on what us as individuals can actually do (if anything)? I'd rather drop 100 comments on general FEELING towards the news, for 1 or 2 comments suggesting 'Let's create a campaign site' or 'There is nothing we can do, lets just sit here in silence' Edit: For what it's worth my ONLY suggestion is that a campaign site similar to that for SOPA, etc. is…

Google was founded on the principle of "Don't be evil", it has the power and influence to effect change, and it helped lead the charge against SOPA. Why is Google so silent now? "He who has the ability to act on an injustice, but who stands idly by, is just as guilty as he who holds the knife." How Google handles this will be its defining moment. This is could be an opportunity for Google to win the world over by sho…

"Don't be evil" wasn't a founding principle, but one suggested by an engineer early in the company's history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_be_evil

I've got my own very grave reservations about the company, but it has done some good stuff. I'm hoping we'll hear from them eventually. Truth is, much of The System is the way it is because the various participants have one another by the balls.

Re: 'Sending a message': what the US and UK are attempting to do

#90

Post by Keyframe » Wed, Aug 21, 2013, 1:58 PM UTC

kleiba wrote: post #2

Folks, take a step back and take a look what is going on here. When you were a child, would any of you have believed that one day in the early 21st century, you would wake up in a world where your own government spies on each and every single citizen, plus whoever is connected to them in another country, where they send agents to newspapers to oppress the freedom of the press? I mean, isn't this almost surreal? Like…

Coming from a country where this was the norm only 20 something years ago, I never had any thoughts that it would be otherwise in US or anywhere else basically.We were on the edge of Iron curtain, why would I think cold war main conflicted parties would live within their borders without mechanisms such as this, albeit toned down? Cold war never stopped, it switched objectives from war to control and finance.