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German government warns Windows 8 is a security risk

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Re: German government warns Windows 8 is a security risk

#81

Post by walshemj »

kintamanimatt wrote: post #78
walshemj wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So and your point is? for example None of the consumer Ausus 8 series MB's (1150 Haswell) come with a pre installed TPM they just have the header.

My point is TPM 2.0 appears to be a different beast. While it's optional today, it probably won't be tomorrow. Vendors are very keen to lock shit down and create walled app gardens in the name of increased security.

So don't buy an iPhone ;-)

But you do have a point - I suggest you lobby your MEP/Senator/MP to ban totally walled gardens or to use anti trust to split the app side of Google and Apple etc from the parent - this is what caused IBM so much trouble in the 60/70's

Re: German government warns Windows 8 is a security risk

#82

Post by mseebach »

bad_user wrote: post #57
mseebach wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you see that a trusted party has full access? Yes, the NSA could probably create a Windows build with a backdoor, and forge a signature that the TPM would accept, but they could (and probably did) just ask Microsoft to do that and save the bother. What attack vector, exactly , does the TPM enable that isn't present pre-TPM?

Because you can only install software approved by Microsoft, you cannot install software on it for detecting a backdoor installed by Microsoft. These computers are only more secure if you trust Microsoft. If Microsoft can't be trusted (and they can't be, as they are under NSA's jurisdiction), then the Windows 8 computers are less secure. But wait, it gets worse. At least in the case of MacBooks you only have to trust…

It doesn't make sense. TPM is only "less secure" for running a non-Windows OS, which isn't possible. Windows is the problem (security-wise), not TPM (which has many other problems) - isn't it exactly as secure for running Windows as running Windows on a non-TPM computer?

Re: German government warns Windows 8 is a security risk

#83

Post by throwawaykf02 »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #59
bad_user wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you can only install software approved by Microsoft, you cannot install software on it for detecting a backdoor installed by Microsoft. These computers are only more secure if you trust Microsoft. If Microsoft can't be trusted (and they can't be, as they are under NSA's jurisdiction), then the Windows 8 computers are less secure. But wait, it gets worse. At least in the case of MacBooks you only have to trust…

Um, wait-Windows 8 will allow you to install any old x86 Windows program. Only Windows RT is locked down to such an extent. I hope HN doesn't have Slashdot levels of ignorance concerning Windows.

> I hope HN doesn't have Slashdot levels of ignorance concerning Windows.

Only Windows? HN also has Slashdot levels of ignorance concerning the legal system, patents, copyright, and the music industry, and these are only the topics I know something about. I avoid political discussions, but from what I'm told, those are just as misinformed.

Note that I am no expert in those topics either. I just took the time and effort to research those on my own rather than accept the sound bites media puts out.

When it comes to technology, there's probably no better place. (And even that I would caveat with an exception for Microsoft technologies, where you'll find more FUD than knowledge.) But basically for anything else, don't expect much from HN.

Re: German government warns Windows 8 is a security risk

#84

Post by kintamanimatt »

walshemj wrote: post #81
kintamanimatt wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is TPM 2.0 appears to be a different beast. While it's optional today, it probably won't be tomorrow. Vendors are very keen to lock shit down and create walled app gardens in the name of increased security.

So don't buy an iPhone ;-) But you do have a point - I suggest you lobby your MEP/Senator/MP to ban totally walled gardens or to use anti trust to split the app side of Google and Apple etc from the parent - this is what caused IBM so much trouble in the 60/70's

TPM isn't limited to iPhones!

I don't think TPM or walled gardens are a political problem, but more a technical and marketing problem. Lobbying for legislation that prevents alternative marketplaces from being locked out of a particular ecosystem doesn't actually mean people will use them en masse, or even know they exist. For example, despite Android's open nature, Amazon Appstore is very unlikely to ever beat Google Play because most people don't switch from the default. Similarly, Internet Explorer remained the most popular browser up until lately, despite alternatives and European legislation. Google Chrome is now the most popular browser, but it took an expensive ad campaign to make Google Chrome happen, not legislation. Firefox is trailing in last among popular web browsers!

Increased adoption of FOSS is really the only solution. It only becomes political when FOSS is legally restricted.

Re: German government warns Windows 8 is a security risk

#85

Post by esw »

frank_boyd wrote: post #21

TPM combined with the recent revelations may become Windows' final nail in the coffin.

I certainly understand the sentiment, but we've been talking about the end of the Windows era for at least fifteen years. At some point it will inevitably end, but I suspect that we will only be able to point to the 'final nail' in hindsight.

Re: German government warns Windows 8 is a security risk

#86

Post by justindz »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #70
progman wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is even worse. The attempt to escape into OSS/Linux is a step in the right direction. But as long as we are dependent on mass consumer hardware then there is always a risk of being spied through hardware backdoors. In this case it doesn't matter which software we use. Even encryption is useless. It is NOT enough to avoid Windows 8 because the real problem is modern hardware that uses Trusted Computing chips. Trust…

> TC could also be used to delete evidence from computers of journalists who would have no power to keep it. Since Amazon deleted all those copies of 1984 from everyone's Kindles, I don't keep mine connected to the internet. If you have data, you can keep it. Keep it on your own devices.

I think journalists or other hobbyists/professionals with work they need to protect should start thinking about keeping an air-gapped computer around. I've seen this phrase used recently to describe a computer which has never been connected to the internet, a network or another device. I'm sure it's non-trivial to source a computer that arrives in a trustworthy state, however.

Re: German government warns Windows 8 is a security risk

#87

Post by josteink »

mseebach wrote: post #31
josteink wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Key point: "Trusted" in this sense refers to trust to an external entity and not the owner or user of the actual computer, which ironically is not trusted to have full access to all things on the computer. The biggest problem is that the "trusted" party which has full access is almost certainly under NSA/PRISM jurisdiction and can be forced to do things which most people would find objectionable.

Where do you see that a trusted party has full access? Yes, the NSA could probably create a Windows build with a backdoor, and forge a signature that the TPM would accept, but they could (and probably did) just ask Microsoft to do that and save the bother. What attack vector, exactly , does the TPM enable that isn't present pre-TPM?

My point was merely that this TPM thing fundamentally boils down to giving up control over your own hardware to someone else.

While it may not be a direct security risk per se, it represents a model of computing where the security-priorities are reversed as far as anyone not in the content-industry is concerned.

Now... If Windows 8 is any worse in this regard than Windows 7 is probably questionable, but Windows 8 has had as a default OEM-configuration to be more locked down in "secure boot" and TPM-land than it used to be.

Re: German government warns Windows 8 is a security risk

#88

Post by snarfy »

kintamanimatt wrote: post #72
nileshtrivedi wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.system76.com/ among others.

I hadn't heard of them, although buying such a thing internationally would be an expensive pain in the ass to return if there were an in-warranty defect! Also, as an Ubuntu-user, as I really love the idea of these, but they're ugly and look really cheap: http://i.imgur.com/KGPznQz.jpg

There are other places, like http://www.powernotebooks.com/ and http://www.xoticpc.com/ that have excellent warranties and deal with all the international stuff so you don't have to. Granted they don't come with linux, but you can order them with no OS.

Re: German government warns Windows 8 is a security risk

#89

Post by kintamanimatt »

snarfy wrote: post #88
kintamanimatt wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hadn't heard of them, although buying such a thing internationally would be an expensive pain in the ass to return if there were an in-warranty defect! Also, as an Ubuntu-user, as I really love the idea of these, but they're ugly and look really cheap: http://i.imgur.com/KGPznQz.jpg

There are other places, like http://www.powernotebooks.com/ and http://www.xoticpc.com/ that have excellent warranties and deal with all the international stuff so you don't have to. Granted they don't come with linux, but you can order them with no OS.

There is also the so-called Windows Refund [0] for everyone else, but it's an absolute pain in the butt to go through (deliberately so), and ends up costing more in time and hassle for a measly refund.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_of_Microsoft_Windows#L...

Re: German government warns Windows 8 is a security risk

#90

Post by mseebach »

josteink wrote: post #87
mseebach wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you see that a trusted party has full access? Yes, the NSA could probably create a Windows build with a backdoor, and forge a signature that the TPM would accept, but they could (and probably did) just ask Microsoft to do that and save the bother. What attack vector, exactly , does the TPM enable that isn't present pre-TPM?

My point was merely that this TPM thing fundamentally boils down to giving up control over your own hardware to someone else. While it may not be a direct security risk per se , it represents a model of computing where the security-priorities are reversed as far as anyone not in the content-industry is concerned. Now... If Windows 8 is any worse in this regard than Windows 7 is probably questionable, but Windows 8 ha…

There are plenty of good reasons to steer clear of TPM. Protecting yourself from the NSA just isn't one of them.
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