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The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

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Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#11

Post by jrockway »

teilo wrote: post #6
j_baker wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd just like to point out that I also am a man and I don't have your problem. I have the capability of keeping my professional work environment professional .

Look, here's the deal. If you are a man, you have to actively move the eyes away, but the pull is always there. Now that does not mean you cannot be professional, but it does mean you have to constantly and actively choose to be so. A woman who dresses provocatively in the office is a distraction. Far be it from me to tell women how to dress, but most women do not understand the effect they have on men, and of those…

What exactly does "a woman who dresses provocatively" distract you from? I can see how it might be enjoyable, but I'm not sure how that would prevent you from doing work. I also don't see why you can't keep those thoughts to yourself, just like you don't make fun of "a provocatively stupid guy" to their face.

On the other side of the coin, if you work closely with 10 other people of the opposite sex, it confuses me as to why you wouldn't think one of those people would be attracted to you. Who else would they be attracted to?

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#12

Post by _cbsz »

What is the goal of this checklist, other than causing a series of individual guilt trips for a gender imbalance that results from societal factors and/or legitimate gender predispositions for/against our field? What are we supposed to do? Do these people think we don't wish there were more women in the field?

Also, I'm sure the ensuing discussion is going to resemble at least three other HN discussions.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#13

Post by derefr »

DanHulton wrote: post #10
teilo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, here's the deal. If you are a man, you have to actively move the eyes away, but the pull is always there. Now that does not mean you cannot be professional, but it does mean you have to constantly and actively choose to be so. A woman who dresses provocatively in the office is a distraction. Far be it from me to tell women how to dress, but most women do not understand the effect they have on men, and of those…

(Please don't downvote because you disagree. Downvoting is for people who are adding nothing to the conversation or actively trolling.) I was totally with you until the "I refuse to apologize for it" part. I'll apologize for it, because that's a part of being decent . I'll also explain the effect that kind of clothing has, and if the lady in question doesn't change the way she dresses, I'll inform HR so they are awar…

You would apologize if a tornado wrecked someone's home? If wild birds living in your acreage pooped on their car? If someone crashed their car (car C) because the car in front of you (car A) stopped, and you (car B) crashed into it, thereby causing all the cars behind you to do the same?

All of these things are, at best, accidents. However, unlike normal accidents, where you could have prevented them by close scrutiny of your environment, this kind of accident may have an original cause that puts you somewhere in the "chain of responsibility", but what actually ended up doing the damage was pure probability and physics. These things are usually called "acts of God", or, to be more empirical, "acts of nature."

Our evolutionary urges and drives are such an act. Why apologize for them? What are you actually apologizing for? Being unable to compensate for them?

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#14

Post by derefr »

jrockway wrote: post #11
teilo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, here's the deal. If you are a man, you have to actively move the eyes away, but the pull is always there. Now that does not mean you cannot be professional, but it does mean you have to constantly and actively choose to be so. A woman who dresses provocatively in the office is a distraction. Far be it from me to tell women how to dress, but most women do not understand the effect they have on men, and of those…

What exactly does "a woman who dresses provocatively" distract you from? I can see how it might be enjoyable, but I'm not sure how that would prevent you from doing work. I also don't see why you can't keep those thoughts to yourself, just like you don't make fun of "a provocatively stupid guy" to their face. On the other side of the coin, if you work closely with 10 other people of the opposite sex, it confuses me a…

It's not an active distraction: there is a certain type of woman (a minority, but a very vocal one) that will get pissed off when a man's visual autonomic systems examine them differently than they examine men. A man's eyes are doing something passive that he's completely unaware of; this woman is actively watching the man's eyes to see where he's looking in order to decide whether to be offended by his "distractedness."

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#15

Post by derefr »

Interestingly, she possesses this bias as well:

"If you're married, having people take you to lunch without them speculating on how your spouse would feel about them taking you to lunch."

She is assuming here that the person "taking them out to lunch" is also male. If the offerer were female and the offered were male and married, there definitely would be speculation as to his fidelity, perhaps moreso than with the roles reversed.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#17

Post by jrockway »

derefr wrote: post #14
jrockway wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly does "a woman who dresses provocatively" distract you from? I can see how it might be enjoyable, but I'm not sure how that would prevent you from doing work. I also don't see why you can't keep those thoughts to yourself, just like you don't make fun of "a provocatively stupid guy" to their face. On the other side of the coin, if you work closely with 10 other people of the opposite sex, it confuses me a…

It's not an active distraction: there is a certain type of woman (a minority, but a very vocal one) that will get pissed off when a man's visual autonomic systems examine them differently than they examine men. A man's eyes are doing something passive that he's completely unaware of; this woman is actively watching the man's eyes to see where he's looking in order to decide whether to be offended by his "distractedne…

I guess the next logical question is "who cares if they are offended". People get offended when they find out that I am an atheist. It's their problem, though, not mine.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#18

Post by schleyfox »

> Never being described as a "hot guy" first and a competent professional second.

Oh Really?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/46457493@N00/230535210/

> Having potential romantic partners assume from your career that you're smart and well-to-do rather than unattractive and unfeeling.

Unattractive, unfeeling, AND with neck beard is our stereotype.

> Joining in appreciation of the sex object du jour without having to be gay or bisexual.

This goes the other way too. Johnny Depp doesn't exactly place guys in a less awkward position, you know, because we're all totally comfortable with our sexuality in the male community.

> Listening to speakers refer to an inanimate software construct as "this guy" without getting distracted.

And ships are referred to as "she"'

All in all, there are some good points hidden among many "grass is always greener" style arguments. Programming is hard work, people are insecure by their nature, and yes, there are gender related issues in the community. Hopefully, the stigma against women programmers will continue to lessen as the stigma against all programmers (bunch of nerds) also subsides.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#19

Post by nopassrecover »

"Not having to explain why the term "gentlemen" doesn't include you. " - So no "Hi gentleman", fair enough

"# Listening to speakers refer to an inanimate software construct as "this guy" without getting distracted. " - So no "Hi guys", fair enough

"Not being the special case ("hi guys and girls, I guess, too, if you want to get really technical about it!!") " - So no "Hi guys and girls", err..

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#20

Post by potatolicious »

schleyfox wrote: post #18

> Never being described as a "hot guy" first and a competent professional second. Oh Really? http://www.flickr.com/photos/46457493@N00/230535210/ > Having potential romantic partners assume from your career that you're smart and well-to-do rather than unattractive and unfeeling. Unattractive, unfeeling, AND with neck beard is our stereotype. > Joining in appreciation of the sex object du jour without having to be gay…

> Unattractive, unfeeling, AND with neck beard is our stereotype.

Yeah, I didn't get that either. I have never had anyone identify me as smart and well-to-do from my career choice. People just seem to assume I'm nerdy, socially awkward, and would rather have sex with a robot (actually heard that one before, for some reason).

Some of us are (somewhat) normal dammit :(

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