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29% of Bay Area's particulate air pollution comes from across the Pacific (2010)

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Re: 29% of Bay Area's particulate air pollution comes from across the Pacific (2010)

#11

Post by veidr »

softbuilder wrote: post #3
ars wrote: post #2

If we want to do anything about CO2 and pollution in the atmosphere, the low hanging fruit is China. Every country has stuff it can do, but China is on the 80% side of the 80/20 rule.

I wonder if there will ever be a war over something like this.

Probably not any time soon, because at present that would mean going to war with China.

I live in Tokyo, which is obviously a lot closer to China than the Bay Area is, and here we have PM 2.5 pollution reports on the news a lot like the regular weather report. On the worst days I throw on a 3M respirator[1] before I ride my bike across town, which makes me look like a character from some kind of post-apocalypse video game.

I am glad to see articles like this, because hopefully hard numbers will provide a concrete basis for diplomatic/economic pressure to make it better.

Even if the Chinese leaders are willing to pursue economic growth even at the tremendous cost of making the air in Beijing[2] so bad that (rich) kids go to preschool in pressurized tents, I don't want to have to keep my kid indoors all the way across the Sea of Japan in Tokyo -- but on the worst days, we do (on the advice of the pediatrician).

(In that sense, I am selfishly glad it is reaching the US west coast -- because the US has a lot more leverage to influence China's behavior than does Japan.)

[1]: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001NDN29O/ref=s9_qpp_gw_p6...

[2]: https://www.google.com/search?q=beijing+air&client=safari&rl...

Re: 29% of Bay Area's particulate air pollution comes from across the Pacific (2010)

#12

Post by rdl »

veidr wrote: post #11
softbuilder wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there will ever be a war over something like this.

Probably not any time soon, because at present that would mean going to war with China. I live in Tokyo, which is obviously a lot closer to China than the Bay Area is, and here we have PM 2.5 pollution reports on the news a lot like the regular weather report. On the worst days I throw on a 3M respirator[1] before I ride my bike across town, which makes me look like a character from some kind of post-apocalypse video…

I wonder if this will raise the value of land in Western China (or west of China), out of the pollution stream.

Re: 29% of Bay Area's particulate air pollution comes from across the Pacific (2010)

#13

Post by prawn »

Uchikoma wrote: post #4
ars wrote: post #2

If we want to do anything about CO2 and pollution in the atmosphere, the low hanging fruit is China. Every country has stuff it can do, but China is on the 80% side of the 80/20 rule.

The low hanging fruit is always getting others doing something. I for myself see the low hanging fruits with the things I can do or influence.

Perhaps "local hanging fruit"? ;)

Re: 29% of Bay Area's particulate air pollution comes from across the Pacific (2010)

#14

Post by ars »

Uchikoma wrote: post #4
ars wrote: post #2

If we want to do anything about CO2 and pollution in the atmosphere, the low hanging fruit is China. Every country has stuff it can do, but China is on the 80% side of the 80/20 rule.

The low hanging fruit is always getting others doing something. I for myself see the low hanging fruits with the things I can do or influence.

Honestly there isn't much you can do. Most pollution is industrial, and most industrial pollution is not in the US.

Recycling just causes more pollution, so that doesn't help. You can turn lights off and install CFL's, but the difference is tiny.

Riding a bike vs driving actually causes more pollution (because farms make lots of pollution) [unless you replace exercise you anyway do with bike riding].

Coal burning in China is so bad that anything you can do is so utterly dwarfed by it as to almost be pointless.

Re: 29% of Bay Area's particulate air pollution comes from across the Pacific (2010)

#15

Post by seanmcdirmid »

tomhschmidt wrote: post #10

A lot of this pollution is just a remnant from when China's economy was still largely manufacturing-based. Now that this percentage is beginning to change, (mid 30s in mid 2000s down to high 20s now), the government seems earnest in their attempts to curb pollution. See: http://www.businessinsider.com/china-pollution-business-oppo... http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/31/china-diesel-standa...

Around Beijing, the problem is (1) use of coal as fuel with outdated poorly maintained energy producing equipment, (2) use of coal directly by peasants in the winter to keep warm (in Hebei), and (3) lots of cars with poor fuel quality (even if the emissions equipment is working, they aren't given the right quality of fuel). The solutions are quite simple: upgrade the equipment, get farmers to use natural gas for warming, and import the good black stuff from Saudi, not the cheap bad stuff (Sinopec is evil).

Re: 29% of Bay Area's particulate air pollution comes from across the Pacific (2010)

#16

Post by tomhschmidt »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #15
tomhschmidt wrote: post #10

A lot of this pollution is just a remnant from when China's economy was still largely manufacturing-based. Now that this percentage is beginning to change, (mid 30s in mid 2000s down to high 20s now), the government seems earnest in their attempts to curb pollution. See: http://www.businessinsider.com/china-pollution-business-oppo... http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/31/china-diesel-standa...

Around Beijing, the problem is (1) use of coal as fuel with outdated poorly maintained energy producing equipment, (2) use of coal directly by peasants in the winter to keep warm (in Hebei), and (3) lots of cars with poor fuel quality (even if the emissions equipment is working, they aren't given the right quality of fuel). The solutions are quite simple: upgrade the equipment, get farmers to use natural gas for warm…

I prefer to blame 串儿 and excessive 中南海 smokers

Re: 29% of Bay Area's particulate air pollution comes from across the Pacific (2010)

#17

Post by seanmcdirmid »

This is an article from 2008 about dust storms from the Gobi travelling across the Pacific; this isn't the main pollution problem in China today.

The dust coming in from the Gobi was a result of deforestation and poor land management policies, which were pretty much cleaned up for the Olympics and have remained quite fixed. We haven't had a real dust storm in Beijing since early 2008, I think, and definitely not one in the last 4 years.

The PM2.5 today is not carried by dust from the Gobi, but it still exists, of course. Ironically, the overall effect today is much worse than it was in 2008 (maybe because it just stays in Asia now?). I'm not sure if the pollution can still travel across the pacific without the huge dust storms of the past.

Here is some more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Dust

All of the info in the article is out of date though. I wish I could find something more up to date. Edit: a recent dust storm in March 2013 that made its way to Japan:

* http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1187348/dust-storms-a...

* http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/03/12/national/tokyo-d...

I remember this, but I didn't think it was particularly bad, at least the sky didn't turn yellow. The air was definitely crappy though, but once it all blew out (well, to Japan), it was quite clean afterwards.

Perhaps the solution to China's pollution problems are giant fans (Japan can then build giant robots to destroy these fans).

Re: 29% of Bay Area's particulate air pollution comes from across the Pacific (2010)

#18

Post by hkmurakami »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #15
tomhschmidt wrote: post #10

A lot of this pollution is just a remnant from when China's economy was still largely manufacturing-based. Now that this percentage is beginning to change, (mid 30s in mid 2000s down to high 20s now), the government seems earnest in their attempts to curb pollution. See: http://www.businessinsider.com/china-pollution-business-oppo... http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/31/china-diesel-standa...

Around Beijing, the problem is (1) use of coal as fuel with outdated poorly maintained energy producing equipment, (2) use of coal directly by peasants in the winter to keep warm (in Hebei), and (3) lots of cars with poor fuel quality (even if the emissions equipment is working, they aren't given the right quality of fuel). The solutions are quite simple: upgrade the equipment, get farmers to use natural gas for warm…

and with China's huge investments in Mongolian coal mines, it's not about to get much better any time soon :(

Re: 29% of Bay Area's particulate air pollution comes from across the Pacific (2010)

#19

Post by hkmurakami »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #17

This is an article from 2008 about dust storms from the Gobi travelling across the Pacific; this isn't the main pollution problem in China today. The dust coming in from the Gobi was a result of deforestation and poor land management policies, which were pretty much cleaned up for the Olympics and have remained quite fixed. We haven't had a real dust storm in Beijing since early 2008, I think, and definitely not one…

I experienced a dust storm in Japan that started in China back in 2009 or 2010 so I think problems still do exist post-olympics (but perhaps greatly diminished from before? you'd know better than me on this)

But I totally agree that the coal residues are the major issue at hand.

Re: 29% of Bay Area's particulate air pollution comes from across the Pacific (2010)

#20

Post by seanmcdirmid »

hkmurakami wrote: post #19
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #17

This is an article from 2008 about dust storms from the Gobi travelling across the Pacific; this isn't the main pollution problem in China today. The dust coming in from the Gobi was a result of deforestation and poor land management policies, which were pretty much cleaned up for the Olympics and have remained quite fixed. We haven't had a real dust storm in Beijing since early 2008, I think, and definitely not one…

I experienced a dust storm in Japan that started in China back in 2009 or 2010 so I think problems still do exist post-olympics (but perhaps greatly diminished from before? you'd know better than me on this) But I totally agree that the coal residues are the major issue at hand.

When I lived in China in 2002, we had more than a few dust storms where the sky would turn completely yellow...it is a bizarre surreal experience.

On my recent tour of duty starting in late 2007, I only experienced one dust storm in the spring of 2008, then nothing. I haven't seen one for a very long time, but it could be that they've just solved the problem for Beijing (doubtful, since we are right smack next to Inner Mongolia).

This is like the only thing...the only thing...that has gotten better in China while I've been here!

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