Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping • Hacker News Board

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#141

Post by denis1 » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 5:07 PM UTC

mpyne wrote: post #127

MartinMcGirk wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a UK resident, I feel like I can speak to the question of whether we can describe the UK (I pass no judgement on the US) as oppressive or a police state, so here's my take on it. I don't necessarily agree that GCHQ or the NSA spying on UK subjects is a great idea, I don't like the idea that all of my communications are collected and available to analyse should I ever blow anything up or should someone in GCHQ take…

> I do not live in fear of the police kicking down my door because I voiced an anti-government view online. I do not believe that if I openly start supporting the wrong party I'll "disappear" as happens in other countries. I believe that elections in the UK are free and fair (for the most part) and I also believe that if a party came along that tried to turn the UK into the kind of country where those things were a r…

To me, the fact that you or I aren't scared isn't proof that a chilling effect does not exist. I'm not much of a "influencer" or "trend setter". Thus, even if i say something bad about the government, why would they bother? Things change when you're talking about journalists and political opposition. The fact that big brother is always listening makes a hell of a difference.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#142

Post by monsterix » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 5:10 PM UTC

hga wrote: post #72

monsterix wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. But since this is about catching everyone else in bed on the planet it gets far more serious than a ... say a Monica Lewinsky episode. I believe breach of privacy globally is a very serious offence and it should be measured as such. You and I bearing licensable firearms from the pop and mom stores is absolutely no parallel to the capability that the agencies possess. Strength of gun laws seems suspect in the…

The Monica Lewinsky based impeachment that wasn't followed by a real trial in the Senate was about perjury , not catching someone in bed (if the latter it was the worst kept secret in US history, do a search on bimbo eruptions). We (used to) expect better from our Presidents. "licensable" firearms? I don't know what benighted jurisdiction you live in, but in mine we don't need no stinking licenses to buy or own them.…

> "licensable" firearms

By that I meant arms that are available for sale on the market. Sorry, it didn't come off as accurately as I intended. Will definitely read up Men and Machines, next.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#143

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 5:13 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #58

saalweachter wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to go one step further than encryption. We need to encrypt all communications expensively . Make algorithms which can be tuned to be arbitrarily expensive, computation-wise. Tune them so that it takes as much time as we can bear to encrypt and decrypt an email. Seconds, ideally. The goal is to make it so that some large fraction of our computational resources are taken up encrypting and decrypting com…

Historically speaking, the US Government is pretty damn good at winning wars of attrition. Don't think you're going to find any amount of money that Congress won't happily hand to the military-industrial complex. They'll spend whatever it takes.

> Historically speaking, the US Government is pretty damn good at winning wars of attrition.

Unless you are speaking in some kind of figurative sense where I'm missing the metaphor, this isn't really true. The few real wars of attrition where the US has been on the winning side (WWI comes to mind) it "won" by joining late when the other side (as well as its allies) had already suffered considerable attrition. But even in those circumstances, its record in wars of attrition isn't that great (the US portion of the extended colonial conflict in Indochina comes to mind.)

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#144

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 5:17 PM UTC

loceng wrote: post #121

dragonwriter wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NSA is the wrong unit of analysis. The NSA is a tool. The group of people that has disproportionate power over the government wins everytime anyone that opposes the status quo supported by that faction is intimidated into stopping a part of their work which focuses opposition to some piece of that status quo, though.

The way they are winning is the problem - which is that they get tax money. People need to be able to directly agree what their tax is spent on - on a per-item basis. New road? Fix up a certain road? Etc..

The people that have disproportionate power over government also have disproportionate wealth, and would not be weakened by a system of the type you present (which would just make it harder for government to serve diffuse interests.)

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#145

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 5:21 PM UTC

itsallbs wrote: post #4

We are at an interesting juncture of history. It seems like Snowden has accomplished what he set out do to: raise awareness of government abuse and bring about positive change. Initial fears after the NSA leaks seemed to be that the public would become outraged and then forget about it. Clearly, this is not happening. A more secure Internet is needed, and instances like this highlight that necessity.

> It seems like Snowden has accomplished what he set out do to: raise awareness of government abuse and bring about positive change.

While I see some raised awareness, most of the change I'm seeing is that the raised awareness is making the government more successful in intimidating those who aren't actively supporting the status quo into hiding under a rock and not engaging in (or facilitating) mass communication.

While this might be a momentary transition on the way to actual positive change, I think it is naively optimistic to assume that it must be a sign that positive change is in progress.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#146

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 5:24 PM UTC

supercanuck wrote: post #33

We need a whistleblower law. A good one, like one that is embedded in the consitution that protects people from speaking out.

> We need a whistleblower law [...] that is embedded in the consitution that protects people from speaking out.

Already got one: Congress shall make no law [...] abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

What we lack, if anything, is a public willing to hold the government accountable to the existing rule "embedded in the Constitution".

Adding more words to the Constitution won't fix that.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#147

Post by mpyne » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 5:27 PM UTC

denis1 wrote: post #141

mpyne wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do not live in fear of the police kicking down my door because I voiced an anti-government view online. I do not believe that if I openly start supporting the wrong party I'll "disappear" as happens in other countries. I believe that elections in the UK are free and fair (for the most part) and I also believe that if a party came along that tried to turn the UK into the kind of country where those things were a r…

To me, the fact that you or I aren't scared isn't proof that a chilling effect does not exist. I'm not much of a "influencer" or "trend setter". Thus, even if i say something bad about the government, why would they bother? Things change when you're talking about journalists and political opposition. The fact that big brother is always listening makes a hell of a difference.

> Things change when you're talking about journalists and political opposition.

Sure, but I haven't yet found either American journalists or political opponents who were scared to tear into the U.S. government at any opportunity, or even any pretext for an opportunity.

It's one of the ways by which Americans have maintained freedom of expression in that regard, is to make complaining about the government so commonplace as to be utterly and completely ordinary.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#148

Post by pbreit » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 5:32 PM UTC

anologwintermut wrote: post #98

alan_cx wrote: post #30

I hope those who treated me with scorn for suggesting the politicians and business people are effectively blackmailed by the mere existence of NSA type spying can now see it for real. No direct threat, not conversation, no deals. Just the fear of the knowledge that one is being comprehensively watched, and what "they" might have. This fear is enough to alter behavior, to conform. Again, at what stage can we describe…

While the NSA stuff is really bad, what Groklaw is doing is absurd and should be called such.HN seems happy to point out that more people die from furniture than terrorism, but yet unwilling to correct people with similarly misguided opinions when it comes to this. 1)Groklaw doesnt' depend on anonymous tips. The site could simply put up a huge disclosure statement on a web form that THE NSA might get what you say. Or…

At first, I thought similar things. But then when you really look at Groklaw, an important reason for its success is its coverage of matters that probably did require a lot of anonymous sources.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#149

Post by anologwintermut » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 5:33 PM UTC

davorak wrote: post #122

anologwintermut wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the NSA stuff is really bad, what Groklaw is doing is absurd and should be called such.HN seems happy to point out that more people die from furniture than terrorism, but yet unwilling to correct people with similarly misguided opinions when it comes to this. 1)Groklaw doesnt' depend on anonymous tips. The site could simply put up a huge disclosure statement on a web form that THE NSA might get what you say. Or…

> 1)Groklaw doesnt' depend on anonymous tips. The site could simply put up a huge disclosure statement on a web form that THE NSA might get what you say. Or not accept tips except via public comments but still operate. I dont think Groklaw claimed it dependes on anonymous tips. The Groklaw fair well did indicate that they valued the privacy of their communications however just as they value not having anyone riffle t…

> What percentage of interested customers are lost when you add one more confirmation button in-between them and buying a product? I am sure a high percentage of people, interested in maintaing their privacy, are lost when GPG is required.

This is true, there are massive usability problems. But you keep infinitely more customers if you keep your service running and allow them to choose if they want anonymity. In fact, again, I think most people don't care for this case.

This is sort of the problem. Groklaw made the decision for their users in effect. We won't let you choose if you want privacy. I realize PJ is a party to those conversations and s/he gets to make privacy choices too for his/her end, but i am at al loss as to why someone accustom to public blog posts cannot conduct most of her correspondence about those public posts under the assumption they will be public.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#150

Post by djpressplay » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 5:34 PM UTC

I think this might be part of a long term legal strategy to gain standing in order to sue. I'm sure a bright lawyer will be able to raise 1st and 4th Amendment issues and maybe even some takings claims. Lavabit and Groklaw would make great plaintiffs in a federal court case. Here's hoping.