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Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

theguardian.com

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Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#121

Post by loceng »

dragonwriter wrote: post #55
loceng wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me wonder - is the NSA "winning"? It seems so.

The NSA is the wrong unit of analysis. The NSA is a tool. The group of people that has disproportionate power over the government wins everytime anyone that opposes the status quo supported by that faction is intimidated into stopping a part of their work which focuses opposition to some piece of that status quo, though.

The way they are winning is the problem - which is that they get tax money. People need to be able to directly agree what their tax is spent on - on a per-item basis. New road? Fix up a certain road? Etc..

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#122

Post by davorak »

anologwintermut wrote: post #98
alan_cx wrote: post #30

I hope those who treated me with scorn for suggesting the politicians and business people are effectively blackmailed by the mere existence of NSA type spying can now see it for real. No direct threat, not conversation, no deals. Just the fear of the knowledge that one is being comprehensively watched, and what "they" might have. This fear is enough to alter behavior, to conform. Again, at what stage can we describe…

While the NSA stuff is really bad, what Groklaw is doing is absurd and should be called such.HN seems happy to point out that more people die from furniture than terrorism, but yet unwilling to correct people with similarly misguided opinions when it comes to this. 1)Groklaw doesnt' depend on anonymous tips. The site could simply put up a huge disclosure statement on a web form that THE NSA might get what you say. Or…

> 1)Groklaw doesnt' depend on anonymous tips. The site could simply put up a huge disclosure statement on a web form that THE NSA might get what you say. Or not accept tips except via public comments but still operate.

I dont think Groklaw claimed it dependes on anonymous tips. The Groklaw fair well did indicate that they valued the privacy of their communications however just as they value not having anyone riffle through their underwear drawer.

> 2)Most of the people Groklaw corresponds with don't need anonymity either. Those that do presumably know it and hence, will not correspond with them absent secure means (once made aware of the need for them)

The need for anonymity was not claimed. No one siad lives or livelihoods were at direct risk. It was claimed that in general people act differently when they know they are being watched, recorded, or when it could be used against them in the future.

> 3) Groklaw isn't an email service provider, it's a legal blog/online magazine. As such, likely none of the NSA's mechanisms for getting information from email providers apply. Compelling individuals to hand over their own correspondence is, as far as we know, hard. It can get worse with freedom of the press issues.

I would assume that all of the email in question is likely to go through a email service provider and the NSA's normal mechanisms will work against that email provider. My understanding is that is uncommon for the NSA to compel "individuals to hand over their own correspondence" and that is normally happens at the email provider level.

> So post a PGP key and say, if you really want anonymity, use this.(Edit) and use a mixnet or Pond, or something to send the message. PGP encrypted email from a new account just deals with the NSA's email intercept capability. If you are worried about their other abilities, you need something stronger then Tor since it fails for global passive adversary.

What percentage of interested customers are lost when you add one more confirmation button in-between them and buying a product? I am sure a high percentage of people, interested in maintaing their privacy, are lost when GPG is required.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#123

Post by sixothree »

reitzensteinm wrote: post #65
talmand wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't new, this was why Hoover stayed in power for so long. He had files on everyone. Remember, information is power.

Great point, and this is a big reason why the "I have nothing to hide" argument comes from a position of childlike naivety. Even if you have nothing to hide, what about your members of parliament? CEOs? Mayors? President or Prime Minister? Judges? Police chiefs? Is there a single one that has never written an email or made a phone call that could destroy their career? What lengths would they go to in order to keep it…

Agreed. If you cannot rely on the people you elect to not be blackmailed then the system is essentially worthless.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#124

Post by Shivetya »

anologwintermut wrote: post #98
alan_cx wrote: post #30

I hope those who treated me with scorn for suggesting the politicians and business people are effectively blackmailed by the mere existence of NSA type spying can now see it for real. No direct threat, not conversation, no deals. Just the fear of the knowledge that one is being comprehensively watched, and what "they" might have. This fear is enough to alter behavior, to conform. Again, at what stage can we describe…

While the NSA stuff is really bad, what Groklaw is doing is absurd and should be called such.HN seems happy to point out that more people die from furniture than terrorism, but yet unwilling to correct people with similarly misguided opinions when it comes to this. 1)Groklaw doesnt' depend on anonymous tips. The site could simply put up a huge disclosure statement on a web form that THE NSA might get what you say. Or…

1) there was a claim by her that some sources are anonymous 2) always leave avenues of information open 3) Who is the press? Congress currently is trying to define who is the press and who is not. They seem to forget the 1st applies mentions speech and press separately. As for the PGP key, I am quite sure when they want it a FISA court will force you to give them your private key and not to say that you did.

The government cannot be trusted with the information they are gathering. I don't care how many promises of "it won't be used", "it is private", "and it will be deleted". If anything the "leaks" from the IRS of people's personal information prove that no information is safe in the hands of government because they cannot keep their own people from misusing it.

Who is to say that someone decides something posted to Groklaw gets some politicians panties in a wad? All the privacy rules in the world won't amount to jack if he has friends who accidentally find and leak it. Its been done in other organizations, it will occur with the NSA data. Most likely it will start showing up during election season.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#125

Post by davorak »

cube13 wrote: post #113
anologwintermut wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the NSA stuff is really bad, what Groklaw is doing is absurd and should be called such.HN seems happy to point out that more people die from furniture than terrorism, but yet unwilling to correct people with similarly misguided opinions when it comes to this. 1)Groklaw doesnt' depend on anonymous tips. The site could simply put up a huge disclosure statement on a web form that THE NSA might get what you say. Or…

>1)Groklaw doesnt' depend on anonymous tips. The site could simply put up a huge disclosure statement on a web form that THE NSA might get what you say. Or not accept tips except via public comments but still operate. That's what confuses me. The majority of Groklaw's content comes from PACER filings, which are public(at a cost). To my knowledge, they never posted anonymous rumors, and instead focused solely on the f…

Groklaw never claimed it depended on anonymous tips. They claimed that it in general changes how people communicate and that the author is just as uncomfortable with an unauthorized person going through their email as if they were going through their underwear drawer.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#126

Post by lmickh »

walshemj wrote: post #82
lmickh wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is pretty much the definition of freedom of speech universally applied. You are free to say what you want and your employer is free to say things like "you're fired." Freedom of speech != speech without consequence.

You would be fine with the Government throwing you in jail for what you said then. By that argument the Weiße Rose in ww2 Germany had free speech but they still got beheaded for it. the UNHC defination is "Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless…

You couldn't have setup a worse strawman. Congrats for making the jump straight from employee/employer relations to Nazis.

Governments throwing you in jail, intimidating you, or out right killing you all disrupt your right to free speech.

An employer exercising his free speech by firing you in no way prohibits your free speech. You can still tell everyone you want that you should form a union. No one is interfering to keep you from doing so.

Please tell me you don't actually equate those two scenarios.

consequences != interferences

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#127

Post by mpyne »

MartinMcGirk wrote: post #75
alan_cx wrote: post #30

I hope those who treated me with scorn for suggesting the politicians and business people are effectively blackmailed by the mere existence of NSA type spying can now see it for real. No direct threat, not conversation, no deals. Just the fear of the knowledge that one is being comprehensively watched, and what "they" might have. This fear is enough to alter behavior, to conform. Again, at what stage can we describe…

As a UK resident, I feel like I can speak to the question of whether we can describe the UK (I pass no judgement on the US) as oppressive or a police state, so here's my take on it. I don't necessarily agree that GCHQ or the NSA spying on UK subjects is a great idea, I don't like the idea that all of my communications are collected and available to analyse should I ever blow anything up or should someone in GCHQ take…

> I do not live in fear of the police kicking down my door because I voiced an anti-government view online. I do not believe that if I openly start supporting the wrong party I'll "disappear" as happens in other countries. I believe that elections in the UK are free and fair (for the most part) and I also believe that if a party came along that tried to turn the UK into the kind of country where those things were a reality then they would be sharply booted out of office.

I was discussing this with some tech-minded friends on IRC the other day, and they pointed out the "chilling effect" you could get with massive surveillance.

And I have to say I see their point. But after thinking about it some more I've realized that I've not once ever been scared to say something bad about the government (and yes, that's happened a lot).

But I have been scared to discuss these topics with my friends, here on HN, etc. It's only a matter of time before I piss off the wrong hacker, so there is a "chilling effect" going on... it's just not the one all my friends are warning me about. :-/

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#128

Post by npsimons »

maaaats wrote: post #95
reitzensteinm wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point, and this is a big reason why the "I have nothing to hide" argument comes from a position of childlike naivety. Even if you have nothing to hide, what about your members of parliament? CEOs? Mayors? President or Prime Minister? Judges? Police chiefs? Is there a single one that has never written an email or made a phone call that could destroy their career? What lengths would they go to in order to keep it…

Wow, good point. Never considered it that way, only my own personal reasons.

It is interesting to reflect upon the phrase "I have nothing to hide". The first thing to note is that it is very selfish and self-centered: "I have nothing to hide". People who say the phrase don't seem to realize that other people may be doing perfectly harmless things in private that are illegal, or at least would get them ostracized.

The second point about the phrase is it has an implicit timeframe: "I have nothing to hide right now". Those who say it regularly seem to lack any foresight (or memory of history) or imagination and can't seem to visualize a future in which they might (even unintetionally) do something which will put them on the bad side of the law. They also don't seem to consider the possibility that the prohibition against ex post facto laws could be suspended.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#129

Post by venomsnake »

mattw1810 wrote: post #102
saalweachter wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to go one step further than encryption. We need to encrypt all communications expensively . Make algorithms which can be tuned to be arbitrarily expensive, computation-wise. Tune them so that it takes as much time as we can bear to encrypt and decrypt an email. Seconds, ideally. The goal is to make it so that some large fraction of our computational resources are taken up encrypting and decrypting com…

This seems like a legitimate use case for an FPGA in every PC. Implement a set of expensive algorithms in Verilog, put it up on Github and set up some slick distribution mechanism that updates the logic when needed without bothering non-technical users with it. This would prevent the crypto from using up too much general purpose processing resources, cause it to be acceptably fast and provide a mechanism for updating…

And NSA will just have to buy one of these for each PC sold. And when buying in such bulk the devices will be times cheaper than what comes to the user.

And for 4 billion USD they could create their own foundry. And then costs begin to plummet once again.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#130

Post by mpyne »

cbhl wrote: post #106
hga wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ummm, no. I'm sure he didn't have files on my parents (well, perhaps aside from a pro-forma one on my father, who as an USNavy officer for 4 years in the '50s would I believe have gotten a Secret clearance as all officers do today), he had files on everyone "important". And e.g. the fruits of bugging Goldwater's campaign airplane, as ordered by LBJ. About the latter he said something to the effect of "If the Presiden…

I think the thing we need to consider is that they don't need to have explicit files per se on anybody anymore. It seems more likely that if a file was needed on you, they could generate one by simply typing some PII (say, a name and address) into a computer form, which then causes form letters to be sent mail merge style to credit agencies, retailers, telecoms, and major social networks requesting your information.…

For the most part it's true they could quickly generate a file, but they could have done that in 1998 as well (modulo the lack of things like Facebook at the time).

Being able to instantly pull up email contents would certainly be different in scale and scope though!

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