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Mailpile – taking e-mail back

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Re: Mailpile – taking e-mail back

#41
Hey all! Mailpile tech lead here. Just wanted to say THANKS to those of you who helped make this happen so quickly.

Improving e-mail security, flawed as the underlying protocols may be, is long overdue. We don't promise perfection, but we do have clear ideas about things that can be improved and how. We strongly believe in a pragmatic, backwards compatible approach that helps people slowly migrate to better habits.

For some background on the wider philosophy of the project, check out the slides from my OHM presentation where I launched this: http://mailpile.is/files/OHM2013%20-%20Rescuing%20e-mail%20f... - this project is as much about rebooting FOSS e-mail development and fostering decentralization, as it is about encryption and security.

We will be posting more details to our blog at http://www.mailpile.is/blog/ as soon as we get stuff written down. :-)

Re: Mailpile – taking e-mail back

#42
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Being a bit Theo de Raadt here, but it's a stupid proposition which makes security guarantees that are disingenuous. a) This assumes that everyone is going to be using Mailpile or something which makes PGP easy to use. This is unrealistic. The moment you fart out an email to gmail, it's useless. b) this assumes people actually understand PKI. This is unrealistic. Most people can't even manage their own data let…

I've spoken to one of the Mailpile guys on twitter, and his answer was that they're trying to improve adoption and implementation of existing standards, before they look at improving transports. Giving their timescales are already measured in years, I don't think Mailpile will significantly change the game. Kudos to them, but they'll just be Yet Another Commercial Pseudo-Secure-Email Seller . I agree that the problem…

I think you mean Yet Another Open Source E-mail Project.

Re: Mailpile – taking e-mail back

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well (E)SMTP works effectively by connecting, then knocking on the door and asking for a list of capabilities (EHLO). When the remote SMTP server says "no I don't support TLS", what are you supposed to do? Email only works at the moment because in this scenario, usually the sending MTA just says "what the hell" and delivers it over the wire in plain text anyway. The moment you force TLS as a requirement, the internet…

I think that's the problem though. My browser connects to Gmail with SSL/TLS/HTTPS. The internet community moves fast when we decide something (Goodbye support for Internet Explorer 6!), why can't we decide on this: You will use a mail client that requires SSL to connect to our mail server, or one that does support SSL will be provided for you. Would you ever allow fallback to HTTP of authentication or credit card da…

Fast? IE6 was released in 2001 and people didn't start "dropping support" until 2008 or 2009.

Unencrypted email is like unencrypted telephone calls. Imagine how to get the world to switch to using encrypted handsets.

Re: Mailpile – taking e-mail back

#44

How many times do people have to say this: There is no such thing as secure email. Assume everything is being read. You can't bolt security on (SSL, mailbox encryption, PKI). You have to design it in from the start. SMTP/IMAP etc have crudely hacked on TLS implementations which aren't even guaranteed to be operational site to site. PGP is just an encapsulation which is rarely used. It's a mess. This is just a repacka…

Silly question: If you can trust DNS, and require every client to connect to an SMTP server with TLS/SSL, and only permit SMTP server->SMTP server connections over SSL, how does that not fix the problem? End to end encryption and MITM countermeasures should solve the issue, no? Then all the NSA knows is which mail server is talking to which mail server. I admit, I could be very wrong. Please tell me why.

Then all the NSA knows is which mail server is talking to which mail server

Unless they have backdoor access to one of the mail servers themselves (e.g., apparently, gmail).

Even without that, knowing "which mail server is talking to which mail server" could be enough to get a good amount of information. This would be especially true if you're using a relatively small mail provider (like Lavabit) or especially so with your own dedicated mail server.

Re: Mailpile – taking e-mail back

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Well (E)SMTP works effectively by connecting, then knocking on the door and asking for a list of capabilities (EHLO). When the remote SMTP server says "no I don't support TLS", what are you supposed to do?" If the DNSSEC secured DANE records specify that connections to this server must be encrypted, then I guess at that point, you drop the connection and bounce the message back to the sender. I know of at least the…

DNSSEC+DANE is fine and all that, but that's another layer of hack job on top of another lacker of hackjob. It's turtles (or turds in this case) all the way down. The fact that a simple delivery stack turns into a mish-mash of SpamAssassin, virus scanning, DKIM, DNSSEC, DANE, SPF, PGP, certificates, CA's, numerous ports open, severla products and many more TLA's is the problem. Complexity does not breed security.

Why is it a hack job?

I would say it’s patching a hole, and it’s the feasible way to make email secure, rather than throw it all out and convince the world to switch to a new system.

Most (internet) standards evolve this way. That’s the curse of evolving a standard that is already in widespread use.

Re: Mailpile – taking e-mail back

#46
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's the problem though. My browser connects to Gmail with SSL/TLS/HTTPS. The internet community moves fast when we decide something (Goodbye support for Internet Explorer 6!), why can't we decide on this: You will use a mail client that requires SSL to connect to our mail server, or one that does support SSL will be provided for you. Would you ever allow fallback to HTTP of authentication or credit card da…

Fast? IE6 was released in 2001 and people didn't start "dropping support" until 2008 or 2009. Unencrypted email is like unencrypted telephone calls. Imagine how to get the world to switch to using encrypted handsets.

Perhaps "fast" is a relative term. But nothing starts until a decision is made. So! Let's make the decision and move forward.

Re: Mailpile – taking e-mail back

#47
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DNSSEC+DANE is fine and all that, but that's another layer of hack job on top of another lacker of hackjob. It's turtles (or turds in this case) all the way down. The fact that a simple delivery stack turns into a mish-mash of SpamAssassin, virus scanning, DKIM, DNSSEC, DANE, SPF, PGP, certificates, CA's, numerous ports open, severla products and many more TLA's is the problem. Complexity does not breed security.

Why is it a hack job? I would say it’s patching a hole, and it’s the feasible way to make email secure, rather than throw it all out and convince the world to switch to a new system. Most (internet) standards evolve this way. That’s the curse of evolving a standard that is already in widespread use.

The hack job comes from the fact that it's not universal, nor does it provide a holistic solution. It is literally a sticky plaster.

The problem is that sometimes standards are no longer fit for purpose on multiple levels. At this point, migration is required to new standards.

This does happen quite regularly. Look at IPv4 to IPv6. The change should be of the same magnitude.

We've done this before. First UUCP, then SMTP, then XYZ.

Re: Mailpile – taking e-mail back

#48
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's the problem though. My browser connects to Gmail with SSL/TLS/HTTPS. The internet community moves fast when we decide something (Goodbye support for Internet Explorer 6!), why can't we decide on this: You will use a mail client that requires SSL to connect to our mail server, or one that does support SSL will be provided for you. Would you ever allow fallback to HTTP of authentication or credit card da…

Fast? IE6 was released in 2001 and people didn't start "dropping support" until 2008 or 2009. Unencrypted email is like unencrypted telephone calls. Imagine how to get the world to switch to using encrypted handsets.

GSM communication is actually encrypted [1], albeit lightly.

I remember having an unencrypted NMT handset and ditching it circa 2000 in favor of a GSM handset. NMT support was dropped by my service provider 3-4 years later.

So transitions like this are definitely possible, though not overnight. Remember the slow introduction of https.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM#GSM_service_security

Re: Mailpile – taking e-mail back

#49

How many times do people have to say this: There is no such thing as secure email. Assume everything is being read. You can't bolt security on (SSL, mailbox encryption, PKI). You have to design it in from the start. SMTP/IMAP etc have crudely hacked on TLS implementations which aren't even guaranteed to be operational site to site. PGP is just an encapsulation which is rarely used. It's a mess. This is just a repacka…

Ultimately we need something that is a cross between Skype's old decentralized architecture and alt.anonymous.messages.

We can now stream videos of a few gigabytes with a large enough swarm. That should be enough to create large shared mailboxen among several hundred random people that lasts about a month at a time, at the end of which your mail program would automatically mail all the people in your address book at their anonymous addresses informing them of the next large anonymous mailbox you'll be using with other people.

Everyday, your mailclient would download the entirety of all new encrypted messages for your peer group and would parse out your messages using your private key.

Let's say that every shared mailbox is capped at 10GB of total shared mailbox space. Every peer in the swarm using that mailbox replicates that mailbox. Once that mailbox hits 9GB of total messages, your client attaches to a new 10GB mailbox being created with a random set of N strangers. It then takes the address of that new mailbox and mails all your contacts a special kind of "update your address book" message with a new mailbox address and a new private key. Upon receiving that message, their client now knows to send any messages addressed to you to the new mailbox and use a new private key.

This approach makes it nearly impossible to perform social network analysis because your address essentially betweens a cross between that shared box and your private key that only you have.

There has been work done de-anonymizing alt.anonymous.messages [0], but a lot of the attacks all relied on the small number of participants on alt.anonymous.messages using that same shared mailbox over many many years. At scale with many more participants and automatic mailbox rotation, these types of attacks become far more difficult.

[0] http://ritter.vg/blog-deanonymizing_amm.html

Re: Mailpile – taking e-mail back

#50

How many times do people have to say this: There is no such thing as secure email. Assume everything is being read. You can't bolt security on (SSL, mailbox encryption, PKI). You have to design it in from the start. SMTP/IMAP etc have crudely hacked on TLS implementations which aren't even guaranteed to be operational site to site. PGP is just an encapsulation which is rarely used. It's a mess. This is just a repacka…

We have options already, although we abandoned them once the Internet became ubiquitous. UUCP would allow encrypted envelopes that would only allow trusted nodes to decrypt enough to forward to the next destination or to the local user.

It would be ungainly, especially at first, and just as easy to scoop associations between users (although, not subject lines or other metadata) by tracing the limited paths. As a critical mass were achieved (yay network effects), along with peer-to-peer sharing, you could source route your messages to anyone.

Given this message:

  From: reeses
  To: hagbard
  Subject: fnord

  Please immanentize the eschaton at your earliest convenience.
I could route it through the equivalent of a bang path (foo!bar!baz!bob), each step of which is a trusted node whose private key(s) I have in my routing table. Instead of bang paths, however, the envelope could be something as simple as:

  Next: baz
  Data: 
  Ardhrcbeebdhvfdhnzrfgdhvqbyber
  zvcfhz,pbafrpgrghe,nqvcvfpviryvg
baz would receive the "Ardhrcbeebdhvfdhnzrfgdhvqbyberzvcfhzdhvnqbybefvgnzrg,pbafrpgrghe,nqvcvfpviryvg" blob and unwrap it, forwarding it to bob, who would have exchanged keys with reeses.

Multipath routing and multiple recipient support would be possible by having additional Next: headers and the encrypted blob would serve as a sufficient identifier, or input into an identifier generator, to deduplicate messages if a transmission fork were coalesced.

This is off the top of my head, so it's wrong in a bunch of ways, but it's a simple model that could easily be deployed among circles of people who need a degree of anonymity. As in the later days of UUCP, with comp.mail.maps and the like mapping a combination of FQDNs to named hosts, initial, intermediate, or terminal nodes could involve forwarding over (E)SMTP. (foo!{bar|baz}|quux|reeses@example.com) would route through a number of machines, and the message in my inbox would look like the following:

  From: POSTMASTER@quux.com
  To: reeses@example.com
  Subject: (none)

  -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
  Version: 2.6.2

  PnyyzrVfuznry.Fbzrlrnefntb-arirezvaqubjybat
  ...
Again, at the beginning, it would just be necessary to know about quux (or just the message fingerprint) and monitor its traffic to identify reeses@example.com as someone up to no good and watch for sidechannel communications to create a correlation between conversants. "Hmm, reeses received a message at 3:14pm from an unknown source. Ah, he received a phone call from 415-555-1212 at 2:58pm and called that number at 3:18pm." Multiple transmission sources, split messages (torrent file pointing to message, etc.), unconventional channels, and the like could wrap enough layers of encryption (and yes, STO) that the feasibility of a timely interception of content would be significantly reduced.

Plus, rubber hose.

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