What about getting paid in stock? Then should you have loyalty?
... those are like lottery tickets. We promise one day we'll be public and you can sell your stocks!
Loyalty and Layoffs
101–110 of 139 posts
Re: Loyalty and Layoffs
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you are wrong. The employer has accountants, lawyers, HR, business. You are not equally-equipped parties. You can't really afford to have your own contract lawyer, labor lawyer, IP lawyer, accountant, financial advisor and salary market researcher. You have to trust the company to do these things for you. Even when something is in writing there are 100s of subtle ways to screw you over, especially with shares…
You're exactly missing my point. Your comment is written from the perspective of someone who feels like the inferior party in the relationship. You're not. You always have the ability to say 'no' and walk away from a situation. Are you confused by your compensation? Request full explanation until you're no longer confused and understand your risks. (Understanding risk and reward and making judgments in the face of un…
"Don't mistreat. Don't be mistreated."
Well, tell that to Ryanair. They seem to be doing quite fine mistreating their employees [1]. I find it difficult to understand why people are working for them, but there must be reasons why.
You're suggesting only one option, and that option is to walk away. True, you can do that. In fact that is the ONLY thing you can do. From employer perspective, you're just a resource. Which is relatively easy to replace if there's enough money in their pockets.
Even the "walk away" solution is dictated by the employer, because the reality is that they effectively say "agree to our terms or p*ss off". So walking away is you picking the option #2.
[1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/10063697/Ryanai...
Re: Loyalty and Layoffs
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
If someone offers you a job, for a certain wage, and you accept it freely, how are you not even when you get everything that you agreed upon? Alternatively, if the business makes losses rather than profits, would you kick in your share to keep things even?
Don't get me wrong, you're right. It is even legally, but not in nominal terms of value. If I do front end web development for 15$ an hour, but am sold to a customer for 150$ an hour, there's no question in terms of value that the arrangement is unfair. As for your point regarding business success, that's not really my call nor do I have a say. How can I accept losses on behalf of another employee's decision? Surely…
See, as an ex-freelance and now employer, I can tell that a company does a lot more than provide a portfolio. The tradeoff is on multiple levels:
- I pay my employees far less than what I can bill my clients.
- However, if there is no client, I still pay my employees their full rate.
- I pay all associated costs: Workplace and equipment, health insurance, paid holidays, accounting, lawyers where needed, ...
- I pay for the acquisition costs for new jobs
- I bear the full risk of a job going wrong and pay for all settlement costs involved
- I pay the difference if a job is not profitable because the employee fucked up and everything takes longer than planned.
- I get to organise a replacement if the employee falls ill.
Now, $15/hr and $150/hr is quite a bit of a margin, but we don't know if it's before or after taxes and what benefits are included in the pay package. From my personal experience a factor of 4-5 is on the lower end of profitability, so a factor of 10 may still be reasonable.
I invested a lot of capital and time in the company and the reputation that allows me to charge a high rate. That investment needs to pay of at some point.
You choose the safer of two alternatives by getting employed. If you prefer the high risk, high reward route, the go freelance but don't be surprised if things don't go as smooth as you'd think.
Re: Loyalty and Layoffs
#104What about getting paid in stock? Then should you have loyalty?
Stocks are only worth anything if
a) you're allowed to sell them.
b) somebody is willing to buy them
or c) you get a dividend and own a significant portion.
The value of most stocks in companies is overrated. Yes, your company might be the next google and you'll hit gold but most companies shares are worth little to nothing. Depending on the company structure they might have some interesting rights attached - such as being allowed a look in the books, being invited to the shareholders meeting etc. Stuff that allows you to judge how well your company is doing. Just don't take them as if their cash value is fixed. It will be somewhere between 0 and infinity.
Re: Loyalty and Layoffs
#105I'm working at a big company where most employees have worked for a very long time. On my team, besides me, the person who has worked the shortest time is 9 years. The next one after that: 15 years. Most managers and senior engineers have worked here for 20 years or more. They've constructed their whole life around this job, it's almost sad. If in their 20 years have switched jobs, it was within the company. I'm not…
Many people have this problem. Basically the problem is getting institutionalized.
Once you are into that it gets difficult to quit by the day.
Re: Loyalty and Layoffs
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
As far as I know, in the US, there is no legal mandate to pay severance. However, getting their employees to resign probably saved them a lot of money on their unemployment insurance by making the employees ineligible for unemployment benefits (that's why I try to get my employees to resign) and/or they may have gotten their employees to sign release forms for liability from wrongful termination or discrimination or…
> making the employees ineligible for unemployment benefits (that's why I try to get my employees to resign) Am I the only one that finds this utterly and totally horrific? Why would you do that? What do you gain by someone who leaves being unable to collect unemployment benefits? Does it directly affect you? I thought that was something that all taxpayers put money into. It reads like "I take pleasure in ensuring th…
I guess he has to pay for those benefits on the payroll tax, although it is horrific, no doubt about it.
Re: Loyalty and Layoffs
#107What about getting paid in stock? Then should you have loyalty?
Stocks are only worth anything if a) you're allowed to sell them. b) somebody is willing to buy them or c) you get a dividend and own a significant portion. The value of most stocks in companies is overrated. Yes, your company might be the next google and you'll hit gold but most companies shares are worth little to nothing. Depending on the company structure they might have some interesting rights attached - such as…
> The value of most stocks in companies is overrated.
If the Efficient Market Hypothesis is true (it's certainly approximately true), then most stocks, most of the time, have exactly the value they ought to have. So no, on average, stocks aren't overrated and investors aren't fools.
Re: Loyalty and Layoffs
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
Stocks are only worth anything if a) you're allowed to sell them. b) somebody is willing to buy them or c) you get a dividend and own a significant portion. The value of most stocks in companies is overrated. Yes, your company might be the next google and you'll hit gold but most companies shares are worth little to nothing. Depending on the company structure they might have some interesting rights attached - such as…
> The value of most stocks in companies is overrated. If the Efficient Market Hypothesis is true (it's certainly approximately true), then most stocks, most of the time, have exactly the value they ought to have. So no, on average, stocks aren't overrated and investors aren't fools.
I'm not talking about the general market of publicly traded companies where your theory applies. I'm talking about the subset of startup companies that typically offer shares instead of payment to employes.
A lot of those are not or only partially investor backed. Even of those that are, most fail, their stock value effectively nil. Of the rest, a large share basically just breaks even which makes their stock pretty much untradeable since practically nobody wants to buy shares in a company that will probably never have a large growth. The tiny tiny rest grows in leaps and bounds and is the next google/facebook/, the stock value multiplying by factors of 10 or more.
Investing in stocks of small startups is a risky business - on average you can make a lot of money, but it takes a lot of capital and endurance to have a large enough portfolio that you actually achieve the average. Otherwise it's luck. My point is: Don't see shares in a company as income. It's an investment and a risky one. Do that with money you can afford to loose and effectively write it off until you've really sold it or the company went public.
Re: Loyalty and Layoffs
#109Remember if anyone promised you verbally any financial windfall in exchange for loyalty, no matter how charismatic they are don't fall for it. In the end they would end up most likely not delivering (and of course they will blame on an external scapegoated 3rd party for it). It is a good idea to always be read to leave. Don't burn bridges but don't assume the company you work for is your family. Why? They extract dou…
Exactly, I think it's a good heuristic that people who ask for loyalty don't deserve that loyalty. People who do deserve it rarely have to ask, because they are busy turning the situation into a win-win, or at least symmetric in risk-profit, so that you both take a risk for profit, and if the risk is realized you are in the same boat, rather than you in the sea, and them sitting comfortably somewhere else.
Re: Loyalty and Layoffs
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're exactly missing my point. Your comment is written from the perspective of someone who feels like the inferior party in the relationship. You're not. You always have the ability to say 'no' and walk away from a situation. Are you confused by your compensation? Request full explanation until you're no longer confused and understand your risks. (Understanding risk and reward and making judgments in the face of un…
"Don't mistreat. Don't be mistreated." Well, tell that to Ryanair. They seem to be doing quite fine mistreating their employees [1]. I find it difficult to understand why people are working for them, but there must be reasons why. You're suggesting only one option, and that option is to walk away. True, you can do that. In fact that is the ONLY thing you can do. From employer perspective, you're just a resource. Whic…
If you can be easily replaced by a cheaper "resource", you're clearly not as valuable as you think. Your "walking away" obviously benefits both parties (you're not mistreated, employer gets things done cheaper) -- everybody's better off for it. Where's the problem? Do you feel entitled to that job?
I find it amazing people will fight the laws of supply and demand tooth and nail, although it's probably the most solid and universal part of economics (and nature).