Loyalty and Layoffs • Hacker News Board

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#21

Post by mcot2 » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 12:52 AM UTC

Shortly after being hired full time at my first ever full time salaried job, my manager when I was an intern was laid off with some others. It really sucked and it was a good initial lesson for me. I will never be loyal to a company if I don't own a significant piece of it.

I don't wear clothing with the company logo, I rarely attend company events, I don't mix anything in my personal life (insurance plans/cell phone contracts ect...) with company provided deals or discounts. I keep over 12 months of living expenses liquid. That being said, I try to remain professional and take the job for what it is. They pay me a salary, I do work. In the distant future I look forward to bootstrapping my own business.

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#22

Post by einhverfr » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 12:54 AM UTC

I think there are three legitimate objects of loyalty in the proper order:

1. Loyalty to your work. Do a good job, take pride in it, try to always do better.

2. Loyalty to the customer. This goes without saying, but don't let this make you do less of a good job.

3. Loyalty to the company. I disagree with the author in saying this is sick. However, it becomes sick when it is placed above a need to do a good job and take care of the customer's needs.

Loyalty to the company is what glues together the other two into something productive, but it cannot stand on its own without degrading into petty politics.

However also for this to work, the company has to be loyal to the employees and this is harder and harder to find these days.

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#23

Post by ISL » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 12:58 AM UTC

diego wrote: post #10

zeckalpha wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She fought for her team, not herself.

Not for "the team", but for individual persons like the OP. The post in fact makes that distinction.

Your team is composed of individuals.

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#24

Post by einhverfr » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 1:00 AM UTC

jacques_chester wrote: post #16

tomphoolery wrote: post #4

Great point, if not a little acrimonious, about the role of a CEO in a corporation. Even though the CEO (or anyone over your head for that matter) may enjoy you as a person, or even find you to be the perfect guy for the job, the bottom line still means a lot more than your life. I think it's important to remember that it's okay to love your job and the company you work for, as well as be loyal to them, but that loya…

I hope that if I'm ever a CEO, I'll have the decency to point out that while I am friendly , I am not a friend .

Keep in mind that I run a couple of small but growing businesses and have worked for major corporations.

One thing I would point out is that in my experience the people who are laid off in a company advance their careers and those who remain stagnate. I am not sure I would put this in a layoff email though.

If times are tough, I still think that layoffs are a real last resort. Your best assets are the entrepreneurs in your business and these can be floor-level employees. The rule breakers, the ones who will fight the system or break the rules in order to do a better job are the ones that need to be paid well, not in terms of money but in terms of owning their job (and ideally a share of profits).

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#25

Post by einhverfr » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 1:02 AM UTC

6d0debc071 wrote: post #18

Sensible applications of loyalty are a two way street - are they paying you fairly, are they developing you as a person? If they're not investing in you, being loyal to them is just stupidity. Match your commitments, that way if they stop you're not left going - "But I gave you everything and now I've got nothing!" Your allies and your friends don't weaken you or leave you to rot. Anyone who does isn't worthy of your…

I am all for being loyal to a company. However, I also think that the fact is....

I have watched "layoffs" at two big tech giants (only one was called that) and watched what happened to the people who left and the people who stayed. In general I have found that despite the uncertainty it is actually a good thing, on average, to be laid off. Earning power seems to go up, and people move into more challenging jobs. THose who remain tend to be part of a more ossified corporation and with less mobility.

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#26

Post by gorbachev » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 1:04 AM UTC

I'm never loyal to a company, ever.

I may be loyal to employees of said company, if they, PERSONALLY, prove to be worth such loyalty.

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#27

Post by yuhong » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 1:04 AM UTC

einhverfr wrote: post #24

jacques_chester wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope that if I'm ever a CEO, I'll have the decency to point out that while I am friendly , I am not a friend .

Keep in mind that I run a couple of small but growing businesses and have worked for major corporations. One thing I would point out is that in my experience the people who are laid off in a company advance their careers and those who remain stagnate. I am not sure I would put this in a layoff email though. If times are tough, I still think that layoffs are a real last resort. Your best assets are the entrepreneurs i…

michaelochurch do agree, but emphasizes that they need to be done correctly.

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#28

Post by valnour » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 1:05 AM UTC

The "400+" employee lay-off that the author referenced was this one: http://timesfreepress.com/news/2013/aug/16/layoffs-hit-chatt...

There was a lot more to the lay-off than the company losing their primary income model

This happened in my hometown (Chattanooga, Tennessee).

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#29

Post by mrtron » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 1:10 AM UTC

malbs wrote: post #14

malbs wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother-in-law is an accountant who specialises in insolvency. He doesn't touch tech company failures, because there are usually no assets they can sell to pay creditors. Believe it or not computers are actually very hard to sell unless you outsource it to one of the big auction places. I've picked up a number of computers from them for nothing, because it's all rotting in their office basement, jobs wrapped up, "…

Wouldn't mind an Aeron chair though! Definitely pick one of those up for yourself in a sell-off ;)

When I moved to Palo Alto there was a free one sitting in the hallway of the apartment building!

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#30

Post by jacques_chester » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 1:10 AM UTC

einhverfr wrote: post #24

jacques_chester wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope that if I'm ever a CEO, I'll have the decency to point out that while I am friendly , I am not a friend .

Keep in mind that I run a couple of small but growing businesses and have worked for major corporations. One thing I would point out is that in my experience the people who are laid off in a company advance their careers and those who remain stagnate. I am not sure I would put this in a layoff email though. If times are tough, I still think that layoffs are a real last resort. Your best assets are the entrepreneurs i…

In Australia I've seen two common patterns:

1. Reducing hours by X% instead of sacking X% of employees.

2. Offering voluntary redundancy packages.

Option 1 tends to lead to some people quitting anyhow.

Option 2 has the problem that it can dramaticaly exacerbate the Dead Sea problem. Anyone with any pep grabs the package and looks for a job elsewhere.