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On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

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Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#241

Post by drivers99 »

fab13n wrote: post #157
pge wrote: post #147

In addition to the factors described in the article, in the United States there is an additional and very real incentive to work "bullshit jobs" and that is that health insurance is tied to employment (far less expensive when purchase through or by your employer). Unexpected healthcare costs are one of the leading causes of personal bankruptcy, so this creates an unnecessary incentive to have a job.

Sorry if this question sounds dumb to US people, but wasn't "obamacare" supposed to fix exactly that?

You're speaking as if it's been implemented already. The Affordable Healthcare Act has a long timeline.[1]

[1] https://www.healthcare.gov/timeline-of-the-health-care-law/#...

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#242

Post by nichtich »

ap22213 wrote: post #193
snowwrestler wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For most of history there were not big companies allocating capital, and for most of history it was nearly impossible for most people to obtain capital to start or grow their own business. Put another way--the modern financial system was created for a reason. The author supposes that it was a big conspiracy theory to give us all shitty jobs, but in counter I would point out that it has likely never been easier for pe…

Well, that's not necessarily true (at least, in my case). I can't walk down to the local bank and be approved for a small amount of capital without providing equal collateral. Even with a strong business plan. I have to show quite a bit of history of revenue and cash flow for a minimal credit line. On the other hand, it's relatively easy for me to ask a bunch of my friends to each lend me $10,000. And, that is more b…

It's not that hard to imagine what will be like if there's no financial institution and corporate lawyers. The first is that the dollar you own will not be real money -- we have to go back to gold standard (even this requires certain level of financial institution to support). Also, say good by to bond and stock, or mortgage or student loan. or cheap airline tickets. I always find it like magic that you can just give somebody some money and then receive some bits of information that claims you own X% of certain company, without the need to actually know anything about said company(although it's not recommended to do so). Just think about if you have to design a system that can align other people's interest so they work for you WITHOUT you actively managing anything. How can it be possible?

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#243

Post by tragomaskhalos »

This resonates particularly wrt what has happened in the UK to the health, electricity and rail sectors, where privatisation, or movement thereto, has created a vast class of white collar jobs whose only function is to administer the labyrinth of utterly pointless complexity that imposing a market model onto these sectors has introduced.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#244

Post by gray-shine »

mesozoic wrote: post #232

Stopped reading when I realized the author was making broad sweeping generalizations about things he didn't understand like capitalism. He claims that firms won't employ unnecessary workers, when the truth is firms will employ as many workers as they deem profitable to employ. A misunderstanding that would go on to explain every one of his other "mysterious" claims.

> Stopped reading when...

So you're explicitly stating that you're basing this comment on only a partial understanding of the article?

You wish to state that you're ignorant of a number of the points made in it. Okay. Thanks for the warning, I'll disregard any point you're trying to make.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#245

Post by clarkm »

3825 wrote: post #178
icedchai wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15 years? you need to be more ambitious. i paid off my home in less than 7 years (small condo, under 200k) in my early 30's. i had a friend do the same thing, except his house cost a bit more. the key is living below your means. you don't buy the biggest house you can afford, because you probably don't need that extra space anyway. for anyone with a decent job and some discipline, it's possible. finding the job is th…

I don't mean to derail the conversation but I wonder how much would it cost to buy a piece of land outright -- with no future obligations in terms of property taxes. Is this a wild goose chase? There will always be public cost of building roads and bridges and schools and firefighters who all have to be built/paid somehow. It doesn't apply in your case as your property tax is probably much less than your maintenance…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#246

Post by api »

6cxs2hd6 wrote: post #224
api wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are largely correct: it's an emergent pathology. Complex systems are full of those. But that doesn't answer the question as to why we never read articles like this. Why doesn't anyone ask this question? So I also blame the Puritan work ethic. "Idle hands are the devils tools," we're told, and work is (like Soviet Russia) both a duty and a right. Nothing offends our ultimately Puritan-rooted morality more…

Although I agree not a direct creation of "the ruling class" in the sense of the 1% wealthy, it's interesting to think about the Sociopaths in the classic RibbonFarm posts: The Gervais Principle, Or The Office According to “The Office” http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-o...

I think there's a degree of truth in that, especially in very bureaucratic organizations, but I think it's orthogonal to this discussion.

I did a stint in business consulting and rubbed elbows with a lot of certified 100% grade-A sociopaths. In my experience they were not deep thinkers or conceptual thinkers, and thus are actually unlikely to hatch deep long-term conspiracies of the sort that would result in an elite agenda to create make-work. They struck me as exceedingly shallow short-term thinkers who do a lot of bullshit posturing and a lot of social climbing. They don't analyze deeply. They look for opportunities for quick ascension via tactics like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_48_Laws_of_Power

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#247

Post by squozzer »

I think the author makes a good point, to which I would add a couple of thoughts -

1) The danger of too much free time isn't because all of that brainpower would somehow figure out how to topple the system or at least replace its' current occupants -- but would be spent licentiously. Exhibit A - Jerry Springer show guests.

2) The choice of more trinkets over less work has a very strong sponsor -- business itself.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#248

Post by mikeash »

icedchai wrote: post #191
3825 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to derail the conversation but I wonder how much would it cost to buy a piece of land outright -- with no future obligations in terms of property taxes. Is this a wild goose chase? There will always be public cost of building roads and bridges and schools and firefighters who all have to be built/paid somehow. It doesn't apply in your case as your property tax is probably much less than your maintenance…

Yes, I think buying land "outright" is impossible. Perhaps in some unincorporated area or whatever? Property taxes are relatively high where I live(about $350/month, though I pay quarterly.)

I imagine you could purchase some sort of financial product that would pay out continuously to cover your taxes. Basically a perpetual annuity, with some wiggle room built in to account for changes in tax rates and property valuation.

I don't know what a realistic rate would be for such a thing, but probably quite low. So you'd probably have to put in something like 50x your annual property tax payment.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#249

Post by whiddershins »

zeteo wrote: post #75

I disagree that the answer is moral and political and that the "ruling class" sat down to decide most people should work bullshit jobs. The phenomenon is more elegantly explained by pure economics: as less time is expended extracting resources and producing things, more energy is absorbed by the zero-sum, gimmicky game of selling and marketing them. To give credit where it's due, I first saw this credible argument on…

What I get from your comment is that any time anyone even references a ruling class, you believe they are claiming conspiracy.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#250

Post by 0xdeadbeefbabe »

AutoCorrect wrote: post #141
api wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit jobs certainly exist, and in great numbers. The proof is in the fact that many of the people who "do" these jobs actually goof off a significant part of their working day and yet things still march on as if nothing is different. In places I've done contracting work I've seen vast offices full of these folks, and it almost feels to me as if their bosses are sort of covering for them. Cubes full of people brow…

or hacker news

Dude, tone down the rhetoric.
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