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On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

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Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#211

Post by huherto »

lmm wrote: post #62

It bears saying that working hours have gone down, at least here in Europe. But it took unions and laws to make it happen, and at every stage employers have screamed blue murder - "oh noes, we couldn't possibly maintain productivity with only a 60/50/40/35 hour work week". Of course, once the law is introduced it turns out the company can remain just as productive. I don't know what the figures are for the US, with i…

Reducing work hours may even have the benefit of creating jobs due to people having more leisure time.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#212

Post by cliffu »

fab13n wrote: post #157
pge wrote: post #147

In addition to the factors described in the article, in the United States there is an additional and very real incentive to work "bullshit jobs" and that is that health insurance is tied to employment (far less expensive when purchase through or by your employer). Unexpected healthcare costs are one of the leading causes of personal bankruptcy, so this creates an unnecessary incentive to have a job.

Sorry if this question sounds dumb to US people, but wasn't "obamacare" supposed to fix exactly that?

Well at least you don't think it was supposed to create death panels :) it was indeed supposed to make healthcare affordable and force insurers to cover everyone, but it also makes health insurance mandatory. There's subsidies for people that cannot afford it, but it's still potentially more of a financial burden to lower income earners than a Socialist-style healthcare system. The US has basically the worst cost:success ratio of anywhere and the insurance rates reflect that.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#213

Post by rarw »

(1) As a lawyer I love how to non-lawyers the legal industry (usually BigLaw) is always the go to example for things that cost a lot but do nothing.

(2) All these lofty ideas and conspiracy theories are great but bullshit jobs exist for one reason - most people suck at their job and are perfectly O.K. with it.

It's nice to think of labor as a machine. A system where everyone tries to be efficient and strive to do the best work possible. In reality that just doesn't exist. Most people go to work for a paycheck. Their one goal - keep getting that paycheck. In that context it's easy to see how what could be accomplished in 15 hours suddenly takes 40. If there is no incentive to work hard, better, faster, or stronger, why bother? Anyone here ever work a union job? You don't exactly get to leave early if you finish early. You don't exactly get a raise either.

Additionally most people don't have a passion that they'd rather get back to. Very few people think of anything besides (a) work (b) family (c) friends (d) misc. rec. activ. (sleep, sex, vacation, whatever). So this idea that the Bullshit Job is somehow preventing people from doing something more productive is, well, bullshit. Most people would do nothing with their time if not for work.

It's nice to dream the world works otherwise but at least in my experience it does not.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#214

Post by marvdm »

“Modern technique has made it possible to diminish enormously the amount of labor required to secure the necessaries of life for everyone.

The wise use of leisure, it must be conceded, is a product of civilization and education. A man who has worked long hours all his life will become bored if he becomes suddenly idle. But without a considerable amount of leisure a man is cut off from many of the best things. There is no longer any reason why the bulk of the population should suffer this deprivation; only a foolish asceticism, usually vicarious, makes us continue to insist on work in excessive quantities now that the need no longer exists.” —Bertrand Russell, In Praise of Idleness

“Suppose the people around here decide that instead of having more consumer goods they’d like to have more leisure. The market system doesn’t allow you that choice. It drives you to having more consumer goods because it’s all driven to maximizing production. But is the only human value to have more and more goods you don’t need? In fact the business world knows that it’s not. That’s why they spend billions of dollars in advertising, to try to create artificial wants.” —Noam Chomsky

I strongly agree with the author, Russell, and Chomsky. I think Jacque Fresco also has interesting thoughts regarding this matter.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#215

Post by lmm »

huherto wrote: post #211
lmm wrote: post #62

It bears saying that working hours have gone down, at least here in Europe. But it took unions and laws to make it happen, and at every stage employers have screamed blue murder - "oh noes, we couldn't possibly maintain productivity with only a 60/50/40/35 hour work week". Of course, once the law is introduced it turns out the company can remain just as productive. I don't know what the figures are for the US, with i…

Reducing work hours may even have the benefit of creating jobs due to people having more leisure time.

Possibly, but it could equally well go the other way - shorter hours means smaller offices, less need for onsite canteens etc.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#216

Post by cLeEOGPw »

Competition.

This article is wrong. I'd go even as far as say he is a failure as an anthropology professor. The answer is as simple as this - competition.

Survival is not enough for living organisms - they must also reproduce. Every organism tries to maximize it's own rate reproduction and minimize others. Any other behavior will drive it to extinction.

To talk in human terms, those who control technology and machines that could provide 15 h work week, have no interest in doing so. It's the opposite. They don't need others neither to survive, nor to breed. You need them. You must prove them that you are worthy of him giving money to you.

Besides, the bigger the population, the bigger the competition. It is seen very clearly in big cities like New York. There's even saying "If you can make it in NY, you can make it anywhere", because the competition makes it harder and harder as the human count increases.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#217

Post by cLeEOGPw »

objclxt wrote: post #9

> It’s not entirely clear how humanity would suffer were all private equity CEOs, lobbyists, PR researchers, actuaries, telemarketers, bailiffs or legal consultants to similarly vanish. (Many suspect it might markedly improve.) We'd probably lead full, rich and happy lives until we were all suddenly wiped out by a virulent disease contracted from an unexpectedly dirty telephone.

Besides, this is a classic game theory example of cooperation vs. competition. Sure, everyone would live rich and happy lives if everyone would cooperate, but that would be for only as long as there are no new lobbyists, etc. Once they appear - they win all the money, and everything goes back to how it is now.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#218

Post by beat »

RyanZAG wrote: post #20

I was with him all the way until "The ruling class has figured out that a happy and productive population with free time on their hands is a mortal danger ". The author does make the point that it might also be the people themselves pushing for it, at least. The 'ruling class' really doesn't care if anybody is or isn't working pointless jobs. Society as a whole is forcing people into pointless jobs by viewing anybody…

The concept that everyone must have a "job" (that is, work for someone else for a wage) is deep in the psyche of both the ruling class and the majority, so both reinforce it through culture and propaganda. It's no different from how previous societies believed that Jews controlled the banks, or children got sick and died because they were suffocated in their sleep by witches. It's rank idiocy, but it's rank idiocy that almost everyone believes.

Ever read The Emperor's New Clothes?

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#219

Post by toomuchtodo »

api wrote: post #195
burgreblast wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before we go too far, raising children is definitely not Biblically categorized as idle hands, but in fact praised and respected. The old-school Puritan would prefer you spend time teaching and raising children than helping an ad company sell more clicks. Or generally make a Skinner box. Don't know much about Soviet Russia but 19-teens Russian avant-garde art was pretty boss. To say nothing of Kandinsky. My perspecti…

Great job mentioning Skinner boxes. I think this might be another dimension to this pathology: to what extent is our economy a Skinner box? And you're technically right about classical Puritans. They would regard a lot of what we "do" today as BS make-work, not true work. But I think that distinction has been lost. The "work ethic" is an example of what I call a "zombie idea," an idea missing its head that continues…

I work in the ad industry. I'd argue that the entire ad industry exists as a skinner box, tweaking settings and turning knobs with the sole goal of having consumers consumer more of their product.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#220

Post by wuliwong »

Today's economy produces goods far more efficiently than ever before. Although it might seem like there are lots of unproductive workers, the average worker today vs. the average worker in 1930 is far more productive.
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