On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#191

Post by icedchai » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 3:00 PM UTC

3825 wrote: post #178

icedchai wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15 years? you need to be more ambitious. i paid off my home in less than 7 years (small condo, under 200k) in my early 30's. i had a friend do the same thing, except his house cost a bit more. the key is living below your means. you don't buy the biggest house you can afford, because you probably don't need that extra space anyway. for anyone with a decent job and some discipline, it's possible. finding the job is th…

I don't mean to derail the conversation but I wonder how much would it cost to buy a piece of land outright -- with no future obligations in terms of property taxes. Is this a wild goose chase? There will always be public cost of building roads and bridges and schools and firefighters who all have to be built/paid somehow. It doesn't apply in your case as your property tax is probably much less than your maintenance…

Yes, I think buying land "outright" is impossible. Perhaps in some unincorporated area or whatever?

Property taxes are relatively high where I live(about $350/month, though I pay quarterly.)

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#192

Post by snowwrestler » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 3:01 PM UTC

I don't understand the alternative world that is being proposed. If all these bullshit jobs could be magically eliminated, then most people would sit around doing...what, exactly?

Eating pizza and playing videogames, maybe? But who's going to make the pizza and video games?

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#193

Post by ap22213 » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 3:02 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #159

ap22213 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really so difficult to allocate capital that just about every city needs skyscrapers full of finance people? I'm asking that as a completely legitimate question - I really have no idea of how much work is required to give my small business a line of credit.

For most of history there were not big companies allocating capital, and for most of history it was nearly impossible for most people to obtain capital to start or grow their own business. Put another way--the modern financial system was created for a reason. The author supposes that it was a big conspiracy theory to give us all shitty jobs, but in counter I would point out that it has likely never been easier for pe…

Well, that's not necessarily true (at least, in my case). I can't walk down to the local bank and be approved for a small amount of capital without providing equal collateral. Even with a strong business plan. I have to show quite a bit of history of revenue and cash flow for a minimal credit line.

On the other hand, it's relatively easy for me to ask a bunch of my friends to each lend me $10,000. And, that is more because of the cumulative result of decades and decades of productivity increases in addition to a society that values electronics and computers and the internet. Those factors give these software engineer friends the extra discretionary money to lend to me. It's not because of the magic of the financial system.

The author is saying that there's a huge excess of capital and productivity that could theoretically 'pay' for other types of work. But, instead, we as a society, decide to funnel most of our excess to people who push around accounts ledgers, ruminate on legal logic, generate sales ads, and do other sorts of 'educated' busy work.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#194

Post by arjunnarayan » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 3:04 PM UTC

ap22213 wrote: post #115

walshemj wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try running a company or doing a start up with out a supply of capital.

Is it really so difficult to allocate capital that just about every city needs skyscrapers full of finance people? I'm asking that as a completely legitimate question - I really have no idea of how much work is required to give my small business a line of credit.

Short answer: yes.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#195

Post by api » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 3:04 PM UTC

burgreblast wrote: post #182

api wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are largely correct: it's an emergent pathology. Complex systems are full of those. But that doesn't answer the question as to why we never read articles like this. Why doesn't anyone ask this question? So I also blame the Puritan work ethic. "Idle hands are the devils tools," we're told, and work is (like Soviet Russia) both a duty and a right. Nothing offends our ultimately Puritan-rooted morality more…

Before we go too far, raising children is definitely not Biblically categorized as idle hands, but in fact praised and respected. The old-school Puritan would prefer you spend time teaching and raising children than helping an ad company sell more clicks. Or generally make a Skinner box. Don't know much about Soviet Russia but 19-teens Russian avant-garde art was pretty boss. To say nothing of Kandinsky. My perspecti…

Great job mentioning Skinner boxes. I think this might be another dimension to this pathology: to what extent is our economy a Skinner box?

And you're technically right about classical Puritans. They would regard a lot of what we "do" today as BS make-work, not true work. But I think that distinction has been lost. The "work ethic" is an example of what I call a "zombie idea," an idea missing its head that continues to march on through a culture and eat peoples' brains.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#196

Post by beat » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 3:04 PM UTC

This is like a proper academic-language version of Bob Black's largely superior text, The Abolition of Work, which was posted here a few days ago and promptly disappeared.

Google it. Read Bob Black's essay, which is shorter and more blunt than this one.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#197

Post by aidenn0 » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 3:05 PM UTC

ddeck wrote: post #171

zeteo wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The ruling class has figured out that a happy and productive population with free time on their hands is a mortal danger

Yes, he contradicts himself. Your quote clearly implies design, and then he concludes with this: >If someone had designed a work regime perfectly suited to maintaining the power of finance capital, it’s hard to see how they could have done a better job... ...Clearly, the system was never consciously designed. It emerged from almost a century of trial and error. There are some good points in the analysis, but it would…

The usage of "as if" like that means to me that he doesn't thinl k it's really what happened. He is using a similie.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#198

Post by no_wave » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 3:05 PM UTC

This fails to engage with any economic reality.

Realistically, the reason that bullshit jobs exist is because it is possible for a low amount of work to result in a good amount of profit. Let's look at Microsoft Office, for example - you can charge $200 per copy for effectively zero cost. Therefore, if somebody can manage to sell 1000 copies of it, their job is justified, along with an assistant or two. This could take a very short amount of time.

The reason there are "bullshit jobs" is because profit margins can be so high. The higher the margins, the more bullshit jobs, and the lower the margins, the fewer. Restaurants have few to no bullshit jobs because there simply isn't enough money to be made with labor that isn't running at 100% most of the time.

If you want a world without bullshit jobs, you'll want a version of the world where products are NOT sold at 4x markup from their cost of production, and instead a 1.5x to 2x markup. Then, companies will HAVE to be lean, because a marginal increase in sales/support will not translate to an enormous increase in profits.

Look at companies with low margins and high costs of production, and you may see inefficiency (it happens everywhere), but there will not be many bullshit jobs.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#199

Post by api » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 3:08 PM UTC

j_baker wrote: post #190

api wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are largely correct: it's an emergent pathology. Complex systems are full of those. But that doesn't answer the question as to why we never read articles like this. Why doesn't anyone ask this question? So I also blame the Puritan work ethic. "Idle hands are the devils tools," we're told, and work is (like Soviet Russia) both a duty and a right. Nothing offends our ultimately Puritan-rooted morality more…

I think a simpler explanation is that people enjoy being productive. Otherwise, why would people have a problem with meaningless jobs?

That's true. I've been in meaningless make-work jobs before, jobs where I could literally goof off 90% of the time. I left.

A lot of people might think "wow! awesome!" It's not. It's soul-crushing and unbelievably depressing. It doesn't leave you more energy for other things; it saps your energy and makes you feel like shit.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#200

Post by ombro » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 3:08 PM UTC

How many of those pointless, time wasting bullshit jobs are directly linked to the gross expansion of government in the 20th century? Finance, law, health care, education... almost all of the jobs he complains about are built around the requirements of bureaucracies and laws, and the exploitation thereof.