On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#91

Post by a8da6b0c91d » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 12:58 PM UTC

ap22213 wrote: post #28

For those that don't know, this is the same David Graeber [1] who wrote "Debt: The first 5000 years" [2]. "Debt" is a pretty great book, and I recommend others read it. At least, I found it illuminating to the popular concept of debt, the historical idea, and its ramifications. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Graeber [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5000_Years

I thought it was a great and edifying book, but towards the end he did the same thing as in this article. He went off preaching half baked ideas about morality like a hippy.

His list of bullshit jobs here is so slippery it undermines his basic point. If private equity and all the corporate lawyers vanished there would be serious ramifications. Nothing capital intensive would get done, unless you instituted fiat capital allocation, but we know that doesn't work. And what's not bullshit about modern doctoring and nursing? 90% of the time they're treating lifestyle ailments for which the treatments don't actually do very much. What's not bullshit about being a teacher of tenth graders who can barely read?

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#92

Post by cnorgate » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 12:59 PM UTC

zeteo wrote: post #75

I disagree that the answer is moral and political and that the "ruling class" sat down to decide most people should work bullshit jobs. The phenomenon is more elegantly explained by pure economics: as less time is expended extracting resources and producing things, more energy is absorbed by the zero-sum, gimmicky game of selling and marketing them. To give credit where it's due, I first saw this credible argument on…

Totally agree with Zeteo's assessment - only thing I would add is that people shouldn't assume someone else'e job is 'bullshit' simply because they can't directly see or appreciate the value it creates.

For example: in the case of corporate leadership, it is easy and appealing to suggest they aren't creating any direct value... i.e. fire the leadership and 'widgets' will still get made. The problem with this thinking is that the output from some individuals only shows up in the medium to long term... take away great leadership from a company and they will make the numbers for the next few quarters, but in a year they will be out-maneuvered and out-performed by the competition. In today's economy it's not about how many widgets you make, it's about making the right widget in the first place... figuring that out is a lot harder than actually making the thing in the end.

The value some jobs create is more difficult to view directly, but is no less valuable in terms of delivering things people want, that they are willing to pay for - i.e. creating wealth. Investors understand this very well, which is why they are willing to pay huge sums to top leadership.

As a final thought, if you really want to 'reap the benefits' or our more productive society, you can work 15 hours starting today. The tradeoff is that you'll need to move to the middle of Colorado, buy a small plot of land, build your own house and purchase a straight edge razor. If you want to enjoy the vast benefits (however small) that our progressive society enjoys, then you also need to live within that system and work in some way to push things forward... however incrementally.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#93

Post by ap22213 » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 1:03 PM UTC

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #91

ap22213 wrote: post #28

For those that don't know, this is the same David Graeber [1] who wrote "Debt: The first 5000 years" [2]. "Debt" is a pretty great book, and I recommend others read it. At least, I found it illuminating to the popular concept of debt, the historical idea, and its ramifications. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Graeber [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5000_Years

I thought it was a great and edifying book, but towards the end he did the same thing as in this article. He went off preaching half baked ideas about morality like a hippy. His list of bullshit jobs here is so slippery it undermines his basic point. If private equity and all the corporate lawyers vanished there would be serious ramifications. Nothing capital intensive would get done, unless you instituted fiat capit…

What would be the serious ramifications of vanishing corporate law and private equity?

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#94

Post by FatalBaboon » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 1:03 PM UTC

maratd wrote: post #81

zeteo wrote: post #75

I disagree that the answer is moral and political and that the "ruling class" sat down to decide most people should work bullshit jobs. The phenomenon is more elegantly explained by pure economics: as less time is expended extracting resources and producing things, more energy is absorbed by the zero-sum, gimmicky game of selling and marketing them. To give credit where it's due, I first saw this credible argument on…

> The sales and marketing economy is zero sum. This is false. I'll let those more gifted than myself to make the argument: http://www.ted.com/talks/rory_sutherland_life_lessons_from_a...

Exceptions don't make rules, it's the other way around

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#95

Post by mbesto » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 1:05 PM UTC

zeteo wrote: post #75

I disagree that the answer is moral and political and that the "ruling class" sat down to decide most people should work bullshit jobs. The phenomenon is more elegantly explained by pure economics: as less time is expended extracting resources and producing things, more energy is absorbed by the zero-sum, gimmicky game of selling and marketing them. To give credit where it's due, I first saw this credible argument on…

Right on! Or as Seth Godin puts it:[0]

> Attention is a bit like real estate, in that they're not making any more of it. Unlike real estate, though, it keeps going up in value.

[0]- http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2011/07/paying-atten...

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#96

Post by spindritf » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 1:06 PM UTC

I liked the article but there is no conundrum here:

> the very fact that tube workers can paralyse London shows that their work is actually necessary, but this seems to be precisely what annoys people

Yes, people are not paid in accordance to the direct tangible benefit their work brings. Salaries are broadly determined by the same laws of supply and demand that determine prices for other stuff.

Tube workers are not seen as worthy of high compensation, or high-status in general, because people believe, correctly or not, that it's easy to do the job. On the other hand, programmers usually command high wages, despite being viewed as nerds and rather low-status, because it's hard to replace one.

Some professions may have an artificially constricted supply, through regulations for example, which throws those observations off a bit.

> It’s even clearer in the US, where Republicans have had remarkable success mobilizing resentment against school teachers

I'd argue that if you replaced school teachers with babysitters, the only catastrophe would be all those damaged egos.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#97

Post by dvanduzer » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 1:06 PM UTC

twoodfin wrote: post #88

JulianMorrison wrote: post #53

The core cause of bullshit jobs is not conspiracy, it's political economy. We currently choose (IMO a terrible choice) to have a money based society where "don't work" == "don't eat". And so work must be found. This is what it means when politicians talk of "creating jobs".

Just how do you propose eating without working? Someone has to work so she or others can eat.

The sun generates nearly 400 trillion trillion watts per second but don't let that fool you into thinking there's such a thing as a free lunch for more than a few billion years.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#98

Post by mixmax » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 1:08 PM UTC

Filligree wrote: post #78

mixmax wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a little handy and know how to work an angle grinder and a circular saw it's really not that expensive. Plus you have something to do in the weekends :-)

In other words, you're substituting your own time for money. That's no different than working and paying someone else to do it, economically, but I imagine you enjoy it. More power to you. :-) Actually, my family owns a country home (far from anywhere; land tax is ~zero) that's also next a fjord. As in, a meter and a half from the water. We've got a floating dock. I've been wondering about how to maintain it, now tha…

Send me an e-mail, it's in my profile. I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have, and help in any way I can.

Sounds like a great project!

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#99

Post by lsh » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 1:09 PM UTC

ronaldx wrote: post #51

impendia wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was with you until the end. Can you provide an example of an academic sabotaging useful production in order to prove his or her value?

I assume you are an academic - therefore, I imagine you have heard of cases where a peer reviewer killed an article just because it contradicted the reviewer's own work? Even if an academic is not explicitly sabotaging work, it's clear from the amount of time spent on grant applications and general bureaucracy that their useful production is being sabotaged. To meet bureaucratic standards, researchers are often requi…

> I assume you are an academic - therefore, I imagine you have heard of cases where a peer reviewer killed an article just because it contradicted the reviewer's own work?

Thats why you have the reviewers declare no conflict of interest, have more than one peer reviewer and an editor who makes the final decision and assigns further peer reviewers if necessary.

I agree with your last two points.

Re: On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs

#100

Post by adventured » Mon, Aug 19, 2013, 1:11 PM UTC

"It's as if someone were out there making up pointless jobs just for the sake of keeping us all working. And here, precisely, lies the mystery. In capitalism, this is precisely what is not supposed to happen"

Which is fitting, as America hasn't been a Capitalist nation in nearly a century.