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NY Comptroller: Legalise marijuana, tax it and end wrongheaded war on pot

theguardian.com

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Re: NY Comptroller: Legalise marijuana, tax it and end wrongheaded war on pot

#121

Post by tomjen3 »

noonespecial wrote: post #63
ahallock wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe that you own your own body, then it would make sense. I wonder what people will say in 100 years. Will they laugh at us for letting people with the label "government" lay claim on how we use our own bodies? I would think so.

If I may float a counter argument (that I personally don't happen to support but fully appreciate): As we move towards socialized medicine, your body becomes less "yours" and more part of the collective. If society pays for the results of how you use your body, it seems logical that they should have some say in that use.

That is one of the reasons I dislike socialized medicine. The state allows one and only one solution, so you have to get into it, whereas you can likely buy a little more expensive "fat" insurance and not have to change your body (or, just as likely fit people get a rebate).

Re: NY Comptroller: Legalise marijuana, tax it and end wrongheaded war on pot

#122

Post by mikeash »

mbrock wrote: post #105
ck2 wrote: post #83

Most neighborhoods I've lived in my life, people drink too much. Every six months or so, there is a DUI arrest where a cop has actually followed the idiot all the way home at (and I've seen people get into/out of the car so drunk they go to the bathroom on the side of their car). I don't care if people smoke pot in their apartments. But once it's legal, it's not going to stop there and I am not sure what can be done…

"Your right not to be bothered by it" sounds really spurious. Being "bothered" is an extremely subjective judgment. If we outlaw everything that's potentially bothersome, that's complete paralysis... It's not a defensible right. Why should people hide in their homes to partake in something that you don't personally care for?

Your right to consume drugs (which I fully support) stops when you begin to pollute the air I breathe.

People shouldn't have to hide in their houses, but neither should they be allowed to spew smoke where others will breathe it.

The problem is that this is really an air pollution issue but is being painted as a drugs issue, from both sides. Grandparent poster thinks that air pollution from portable fires is somehow related to the legal status of cannabis. Conversely, lots of smokers probably think that efforts to restrict their ability to pollute is some sort of effort to outlaw their drug.

Re: NY Comptroller: Legalise marijuana, tax it and end wrongheaded war on pot

#123

Post by mikeash »

pravda wrote: post #7
e40 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps that's because technical people tend to look at facts when they analyze a situation?

Ummm...also because they like to get toasted. I think this plan is discriminatory. "under my proposal, only adults age 21 and over would be allowed to possess up to one ounce of marijuana" Why shouldn't 18-20 year olds have the right to blaze up? Those are the prime toking years.

I have no interest in consuming marijuana but I wholeheartedly support legalization, because it would save a lot of public money and because criminalizing it ruins productive people's lives. Anecdotally, a lot of people I know in the tech community think similarly.

As for the age limit, take it step by step. Insisting on a perfect solution immediately accomplishes nothing except to delay any solution.

Re: NY Comptroller: Legalise marijuana, tax it and end wrongheaded war on pot

#124

Post by pessimizer »

rayiner wrote: post #62
cransa wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they're already making a lot of money from weed and other drugs being illegal. It's the prison industrial complex, man. The government isn't interested in stopping violence. If so, we'd have much saner drug laws. Drug busts are easy and when you do them the DEA and federal government give you money to buy shiny toys like tanks and new body armor.

It's phat to blame the prison industrial complex, but they're just taking advantage of the Puritan strain in American society. Remember, we're a country that actually passed a Constitutional amendment to make alcohol, even beer, illegal. I'm sure the DEA loves the status quo, but that's not where the votes come from. The votes come from everyone who bought into Nancy Reagan's "Just Say No" campaign. People like my mo…

There are lots of individuals and groups that have benefited greatly from the status quo on drugs and who made a conscious effort so that message cannon was always aimed at your mom and firing.

The Drug War has been massively expensive. It isn't expensive because they hand money to drug dealers, it's expensive because money is used to manufacture prisons and operate them, money is used to buy military equipment for police forces, money is used to supply dictatorships around the world (but esp. in South America) with helicopters, US-made weapons and cash, money is spent on wars that drugs are used as a partial pretense for. This money is all spent with the same individual interests who also happen to be some of our largest political donors.

So politicians, the ones responsible for official drug messaging and for drug laws, have a spigot of cash that will be cut off if they have a nuanced opinion about drugs.

It also often helps politicians to be seen as tough on minorities (especially presidents running for a second term) and "tough on drugs" has been a stand-in for "tough on blacks" along with welfare reform. The same demographic who is becoming more pro-drug is also a lot less racist than their parents, so that message doesn't play to them anymore. I think the Drug War is starting to be seen as preying on the weak, rather than preying on the undesirable.

It's not really meaningful to put the blame on Puritanism, because there were hundreds of years between the Puritan landing and prohibition, during which time most people spent a lot of their time intoxicated on whatever they liked. Drug prohibition was initially a result of race-baiting.

>If you poll your mom and her friends, I bet you see that viewpoint pretty well-represented.

I'm nearly 40, and my mother has always been against drug prohibition as far as I can remember. Depends on your family.

>pot causes young men to give up on life and not get jobs or girlfriends and just play video games all day

I don't know it to be a cause, but I'd say that there's probably an association. Alcohol is associated with falling, being poisoned and liver failure, fighting and domestic abuse. Both have been associated with a pleasant afternoon with friends, too.

Judging by the prescription drug market, the effects of either drug wouldn't keep us from trying to give it to children if a buck could be made.

Re: NY Comptroller: Legalise marijuana, tax it and end wrongheaded war on pot

#125

Post by engrenage »

oleganza wrote: post #98
Kliment wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're proposing giving insurance companies the power to switch off my power, water and internet when they feel like it? Sounds like an excellent opportunity to abuse power.

First, laws, guns and police are much more excellent opportunities to abuse power and already attract all sorts of sadists and psychopaths. Second, there is no "giving power" anywhere in the voluntary agreements. Your water will be turned off only if your water supplier thinks it's more profitable to please some insured customers than not piss you off. If they turn your water off unreasonably, they risk losing client…

Isn't this just a protection racket? The water company will turn off your water supply if a richer group asks for it. That sounds like a nightmare.

Re: NY Comptroller: Legalise marijuana, tax it and end wrongheaded war on pot

#126

Post by engrenage »

jlgreco wrote: post #65
rayiner wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's phat to blame the prison industrial complex, but they're just taking advantage of the Puritan strain in American society. Remember, we're a country that actually passed a Constitutional amendment to make alcohol, even beer, illegal. I'm sure the DEA loves the status quo, but that's not where the votes come from. The votes come from everyone who bought into Nancy Reagan's "Just Say No" campaign. People like my mo…

The government runs propaganda campaigns ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Youth_Anti-Drug_Media_... ) to convince people like your mother that drugs are the worse thing imaginable. Those people then turn around and support the government in its opposition to drugs. So why do they want to convince the public that drugs need to be pursued in the first place? If they were merely responding to pressure from the pu…

The government fuels positive sentiment around pretty much all of its policies. It doesn't go round saying 'our policies suck' because that would provide an opening to opposition.

Re: NY Comptroller: Legalise marijuana, tax it and end wrongheaded war on pot

#127

Post by wreckimnaked »

mikeash wrote: post #122
mbrock wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Your right not to be bothered by it" sounds really spurious. Being "bothered" is an extremely subjective judgment. If we outlaw everything that's potentially bothersome, that's complete paralysis... It's not a defensible right. Why should people hide in their homes to partake in something that you don't personally care for?

Your right to consume drugs (which I fully support) stops when you begin to pollute the air I breathe. People shouldn't have to hide in their houses, but neither should they be allowed to spew smoke where others will breathe it. The problem is that this is really an air pollution issue but is being painted as a drugs issue, from both sides. Grandparent poster thinks that air pollution from portable fires is somehow r…

> Your right to consume drugs (which I fully support) stops when you begin to pollute the air I breathe.

Really? The air you breathe is mostly polluted by fossil fuel combustion. We should by that logic ban cars and power plants, not cigarettes.

Re: NY Comptroller: Legalise marijuana, tax it and end wrongheaded war on pot

#128

Post by mikeash »

wreckimnaked wrote: post #127
mikeash wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your right to consume drugs (which I fully support) stops when you begin to pollute the air I breathe. People shouldn't have to hide in their houses, but neither should they be allowed to spew smoke where others will breathe it. The problem is that this is really an air pollution issue but is being painted as a drugs issue, from both sides. Grandparent poster thinks that air pollution from portable fires is somehow r…

> Your right to consume drugs (which I fully support) stops when you begin to pollute the air I breathe. Really? The air you breathe is mostly polluted by fossil fuel combustion. We should by that logic ban cars and power plants, not cigarettes.

We should, and do, heavily regulate those activities. Banning them altogether is impractical, but we don't just give people carte blanche to dump whatever they feel like into the air.

Re: NY Comptroller: Legalise marijuana, tax it and end wrongheaded war on pot

#129

Post by soup10 »

jlgreco wrote: post #65
rayiner wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's phat to blame the prison industrial complex, but they're just taking advantage of the Puritan strain in American society. Remember, we're a country that actually passed a Constitutional amendment to make alcohol, even beer, illegal. I'm sure the DEA loves the status quo, but that's not where the votes come from. The votes come from everyone who bought into Nancy Reagan's "Just Say No" campaign. People like my mo…

The government runs propaganda campaigns ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Youth_Anti-Drug_Media_... ) to convince people like your mother that drugs are the worse thing imaginable. Those people then turn around and support the government in its opposition to drugs. So why do they want to convince the public that drugs need to be pursued in the first place? If they were merely responding to pressure from the pu…

I suspect the root of it is that drugs make individuals respect authority less, so naturally to protect it's power government opposes the use of drugs. Rationalization takes care of the rest(play up the negative aspects of drug usage, downplay the positive aspects of usage and legalization).

Re: NY Comptroller: Legalise marijuana, tax it and end wrongheaded war on pot

#130

Post by tzs »

Zigurd wrote: post #118
tzs wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/08/22/1206820109.abst...

Subsequently debunked as an uncontrolled study. That's a prime example of the kind of research and researchers bought by ONDCP.

Citation for this debunking?
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