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The New Altair: Why the Arduino Matters

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Re: The New Altair: Why the Arduino Matters

#21

Post by pingswept »

atduskgreg wrote: post #19
pingswept wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For embedded programming (twiddling digital I/O, motor control, and the like), I think the Arduino and the Basic Stamp are comparable in ease of use, or at least in the same ballpark. I've used both; I'm not just making this up. On the other hand, you're entirely right about Ethernet connectivity. Making a Basic Stamp tweet is somewhere between nontrivial and impossible. Still, I don't think that the Arduino is miles…

Those are all cool boards, but they are dramatically more expensive 3-10x and harder to get started with. I've used BASIC Stamp as well and so am not "making this up either". When I was first getting started with physical computing stuff, I tried to use BASIC Stamp and ran into quite a large number of difficulties. While the BASIC language is relatively straightforward, the installation/first run story is full of bad…

Sorry-- I didn't mean to imply that you were making anything up. I was saying that I was speaking from experience.

By performance/price, I mean the ratio of performance to price. You're right that the boards I cite are 3-10x more expensive, but they're also more powerful by a similar factor.

When did Parallax switch to the AVR architecture? Last time I used a Basic Stamp, it was a PIC.

Re: The New Altair: Why the Arduino Matters

#22

Post by ladyada »

pingswept wrote: post #15
atduskgreg wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe above 10,000 if you aggregate over the entire multi-decade period that the Basic Stamp has been around. Maybe. Also, BASIC the programming language may be simpler than Ruby, it may even be simpler that C/C++ that you program the Arduino in. But it's still much harder to get starter programming a Basic Stamp and much harder to get it to do anything useful. How long would it take an intermediate PHP programmer wi…

For embedded programming (twiddling digital I/O, motor control, and the like), I think the Arduino and the Basic Stamp are comparable in ease of use, or at least in the same ballpark. I've used both; I'm not just making this up. On the other hand, you're entirely right about Ethernet connectivity. Making a Basic Stamp tweet is somewhere between nontrivial and impossible. Still, I don't think that the Arduino is miles…

These boards are not as much competitors to the Arduino, they are upgrades. And they're quite hard to use if you've never done any electronics. Which is why you'll see everyone start with Arduino and then eventually move up.

Besides, if someone's going to fry their first board (and they will), it should probably cost $30, not $100+ The $30 price point is a major bonus that overrides performance/price.

* or one can replace the processor for <$5

Re: The New Altair: Why the Arduino Matters

#23

Post by atduskgreg »

pingswept wrote: post #21
atduskgreg wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are all cool boards, but they are dramatically more expensive 3-10x and harder to get started with. I've used BASIC Stamp as well and so am not "making this up either". When I was first getting started with physical computing stuff, I tried to use BASIC Stamp and ran into quite a large number of difficulties. While the BASIC language is relatively straightforward, the installation/first run story is full of bad…

Sorry-- I didn't mean to imply that you were making anything up. I was saying that I was speaking from experience. By performance/price, I mean the ratio of performance to price. You're right that the boards I cite are 3-10x more expensive, but they're also more powerful by a similar factor. When did Parallax switch to the AVR architecture? Last time I used a Basic Stamp, it was a PIC.

Oops, you're right it is a PIC not an AVR. Just a typo/brain-o on my part (I've corrected it in my above comment, thanks). Obviously there are steps up from the Arduino in terms of power. Just like there were "real" Unix-caliber mainframe systems available in 1975 when the Altair launched. and likewise, the Arduino-compatible boards are getting more powerful every day, cf the new Arduino Mega as well as the Illuminato. The core of my argument is of the "there's always room at the bottom" type. Without a smooth newbie-to-expert curve, the existence of more powerful and flexible systems is just a frustration to users who are locked out of the whole domain for lack of a starting point. I don't think the Arduino is the Last Word in Physical Computing, I think that for a large class of people what's important about it is that it's the first word.

Re: The New Altair: Why the Arduino Matters

#24

Post by atduskgreg »

ladyada wrote: post #22
pingswept wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For embedded programming (twiddling digital I/O, motor control, and the like), I think the Arduino and the Basic Stamp are comparable in ease of use, or at least in the same ballpark. I've used both; I'm not just making this up. On the other hand, you're entirely right about Ethernet connectivity. Making a Basic Stamp tweet is somewhere between nontrivial and impossible. Still, I don't think that the Arduino is miles…

These boards are not as much competitors to the Arduino, they are upgrades. And they're quite hard to use if you've never done any electronics. Which is why you'll see everyone start with Arduino and then eventually move up. Besides, if someone's going to fry their first board (and they will), it should probably cost $30 , not $100+ The $30 price point is a major bonus that overrides performance/price. * or one can r…

Dead on. Also, the main point when you're getting started with physical computing is not the processor, but the actual hardware you can plug into it, the LEDs, buttons, motors, thermistors, etc. One of the Arduino's really big advantages for beginners is that it is relatively "transparent" in terms of cognitive, cost, and setup overhead in this regard. It gets you to actually plugging things into it and seeing them blink the fastest and cheapest by an order of magnitude.

Re: The New Altair: Why the Arduino Matters

#25

Post by sown »

ajross wrote: post #2

Way oversold. The Arduino is a nifty AVR microcontroller board, no more and no less. It's distinguished from other such things that have appeared over the years (anyone remember the BASIC Stamp?) only by price (cheaper, but not much cheaper) and integration (it has a USB device plug and a reasonably attractive IDE). It's not breaking any ground that hasn't been a four-lane highway for the last two decades. But it's c…

For me, things like the Altair, the Apple IIe and the Arduino were not what they could functionally do for my data or make "my life easier" ... it was what it did to me, personally.

I learned programming and it fundamentally changed my brain: I could issue commands programatically to a piece of hardware and it will do what I tell it to (to a fault).

The point of the Arduino (as seen in modern times) is to change a person's brain in fundamental ways about what computers, hardware and software are, how they interact and what they can do with it. It expands their minds and shows them possibilities and understanding not seen when one just views a piece of hardware as some mysterious entity.

As for what the Arduino can do for this end, it requires a community of dedicated and enthusiastic users as well as hardware and a (software) programmer. A group of people with a diverse set of interests, experiences and educations (artists to engineers and everything in between), the aim of ease-of-use, learning and understanding is required for this kind of excitement and interest.

There was a similar group for PCs but I found my community with the Apple IIe and LOGO for that was what the local user groups were using and what my middle school teacher taught me. Now, the "local" user group is the entire internet. Had I gone to a different school maybe there would have been an assembly community.

Re: The New Altair: Why the Arduino Matters

#26

Post by cubicle67 »

No, the New Altair is Lego Mindstorms http://www.amazon.com/LEGO-4494799-Mindstorms-NXT/dp/B000E4F...

Expensive? Yes. Underpowered? Yes. Thriving community? Yes. Read the reviews (there's a few hundred of them) and see the number of kids for whom this is their first intro into programming. It's an awesome piece of kit

Re: The New Altair: Why the Arduino Matters

#27

Post by pingswept »

atduskgreg wrote: post #23
pingswept wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry-- I didn't mean to imply that you were making anything up. I was saying that I was speaking from experience. By performance/price, I mean the ratio of performance to price. You're right that the boards I cite are 3-10x more expensive, but they're also more powerful by a similar factor. When did Parallax switch to the AVR architecture? Last time I used a Basic Stamp, it was a PIC.

Oops, you're right it is a PIC not an AVR. Just a typo/brain-o on my part (I've corrected it in my above comment, thanks). Obviously there are steps up from the Arduino in terms of power. Just like there were "real" Unix-caliber mainframe systems available in 1975 when the Altair launched. and likewise, the Arduino-compatible boards are getting more powerful every day, cf the new Arduino Mega as well as the Illuminat…

I guess it's all a matter of degree, but to me, the Arduino is less like the Altair, which was not very widely distributed compared to similar computers sold in later years, and more like the Apple II-- a great product, widely distributed, but not the first of a kind. I'd say the PIC 16F84 and a Picstart programmer are more like the Altair than the Arduino is.

I do agree, though, that having entry-level boards that are easy to use is a huge step up for the large class of people you mention.

Re: The New Altair: Why the Arduino Matters

#28

Post by mellis »

As one of the creators of Arduino (and currently its lead software developer), I'm happy to see such a lively discussion of the platform. I'd also love to hear any suggestions you might have for improving it.

I should note that we've done very little promotion ourselves, apart from teaching lots of people to use it in various workshops. Of course, we're happy that Make is such a fan.

One interesting feature of the platform that hasn't been mentioned here is the fact that the whole thing (hardware and software) is open-source. We've had lots of people take the Eagle (CAD) files and design their own custom variants, which creates a vibrant ecosystem.

Finally, if anyone wants to get involved and help make Arduino better, check out our developer pages at: http://code.google.com/p/arduino/

Re: The New Altair: Why the Arduino Matters

#30

Post by cubicle67 »

mellis wrote: post #28

As one of the creators of Arduino (and currently its lead software developer), I'm happy to see such a lively discussion of the platform. I'd also love to hear any suggestions you might have for improving it. I should note that we've done very little promotion ourselves, apart from teaching lots of people to use it in various workshops. Of course, we're happy that Make is such a fan. One interesting feature of the pl…

There's two things you've (plural) done here then I'm very grateful for: USB and OSX software.

I've a birthday coming up soon, so I've just been showing my wife these ;) Thanks.

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