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Google’s “20% time,” which brought you Gmail and AdSense, is now as good as dead

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Re: Google’s “20% time,” which brought you Gmail and AdSense, is now as good as dead

#471
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I give my time for free to Google? Because my entire career- well before I started working here- has been dependent on things that Google has given to me for free. Like Google Search. Search helped me learn to run linux clusters effectively (it was far better than AltaVista for searching for specific error messages) which ensured I had a job, even in the dotcom busts. It helped me learn python, which also p…

I'm not seeing any "generosity" on Google's part, at least from the examples you provided. You certainly seem like a smart guy, working on some cool stuff, so I'm not surprised people are a bit confused (hence the term "brainwashed") by your (pretending to?) not understand the business model of the company you work for. You are giving your time away, for free, to a for profit corporation. That's so irrational it's pa…

- He gets to work on what he probably considers to be much more "interesting than average" projects.

- He's building a reputation of innovator in the company, which is certainly not bad for the next promotion or raise.

- He's sure well paid and doesn't need to risk his own wealth.

- He's out of the paper stuff and can concentrate on the technical side.

Of course, that way he misses the "get insanely rich" possibility of startups. The "famous" part no so much, you can get that in a big corp as well...

Re: Google’s “20% time,” which brought you Gmail and AdSense, is now as good as dead

#473
post #122

I am a Googler. I will only speak to my personal experience, and the experience of people around me: 20% time still exists, and is encouraged as a mechanism to explore exciting new ideas without the complexity and cost of a real product. My last three years were spent turning my 20% project into a product, and my job now is spent turning another 20% project into a product. There was never any management pressure from…

> Calling 20% time 120% time is fair. Realistically it's hard to do your day job productively and also build a new project from scratch. You have to be willing to put in hours outside of your normal job to be successful. LinkedIn'er here. One of the things I love about our culture is InDay/HackDay. It works out to less than 20% time, but the entire company is given 1 day a month - generally the middle Friday - to do…

Atlassian does similar a thing every quarterly-ish, called Ship-It days (used to be called Fedex, because, you deliver overnight...but the real Fedex don't like it, so we don't call it that anymore), where you ship something over 24 hours (or 48, if you cheat a little and start early...), either by yourself, or convince other people to team up with you. Criteria is that you must have something that can be demo'ed, or better, shippable (or close to shippable). There's also prizes and presentations, then food/beer bonanza. Sure people put in extra hours, but i think they are willingly doing it because its also fun and quite a social activity, all whilst generating innovation and allow experimentation.

Re: Google’s “20% time,” which brought you Gmail and AdSense, is now as good as dead

#474
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None, failures tend to be abandoned early in most cases. Besides if you care about failure then you don't belong in the tech industry.

What a strange sentiment. We should all just not care about being successful?

You should care about successes, but you should ignore the failures that will follow.

Re: Google’s “20% time,” which brought you Gmail and AdSense, is now as good as dead

#475
post #248

This is the opposite of Black Swan farming. With any project like 20% time, you should expect that almost everything produced will be worthless. So what? All you need are 1-2 big hits to justify the entire program. Letting employees work on what they think will be valuable is a bottom up approach that can reveal knowledge that's inaccessible to managers. Some comments on here say that the program 'only' created Gmail…

but the problem is that the incentivization scheme for a middle manager doesn't align with what 20% time gives to the org.

Lets suppose you are a middle manager, and your performance is based on the completion of projects assigned to you by upper management, and perhaps a little bit of weight is given to the innovation your team cranks out in 20% time.

If the projects you are given is either slipping, or is not achieving the type of success that makes you look good (for the purposes of your own promotion/bonus), do you allow your "resources" to work on 20% time, which may bring very little benefit to you directly even if it is successful (it brings benefit to the engineer, not you), or do you divert that 20% time resource to projects that _do_ give you personal benefit?

Re: Google’s “20% time,” which brought you Gmail and AdSense, is now as good as dead

#476

There are a lot of good remarks in this thread. I will try to add a point I haven't seen here yet: Once I was in a big company with a big, famous research lab. The group I was in, just three of us, was led by a guy who had taken some technical work and published some papers. The journals were peer-reviewed but semi-popular so reached some ordinary business customers. The papers fit in with a lot of hype at the time.…

This whole segmentation is really bad. And from outside, it does seem quite simple. This brings me to my staple question again: "How in the world those intelligent people with all those qualifications fail to understand something, well, dumber than paint?" Or is it that majority of layers are full of unwilling/stupid people. I can see people being unwilling. During my time in internship, I became quite hesitant to to…

> This brings me to my staple question again: "How in the world those intelligent people with all those qualifications fail to understand something, well, dumber than paint?"

Dumber than paint, but usually not totally irrational for the managers who do such things.

Generally if such dumb behavior is made sufficiently 'public', then nearly everyone will fall in line and agree that, yes, sure, it was dumb and we don't want anything like that going on here.

Otherwise, dumber than paint is common, and here is some of why: You are a manager, at some level, but not CEO, with several subordinates, managers and/or worker bees. One of your subordinates comes to you with a new 'idea' X. Maybe all X is is 'blue sky', back of the envelope, 10 pages of manuscript descriptions and/or mathematical derivations, a carefully prepared paper of 50 pages with technology, market analysis, cost and revenue projections, running prototype software, breadboard hardware, joint research with some leading customers, or some such.

Your mission, and likely you have to accept it, now, is to decide what to do about project X.

Suppose you investigate project X. Okay, that's time and energy away from your assigned duties that count with your manager. So, maybe you put in some weekends investigating project X -- now your spouse is unhappy.

Suppose from your investigation you decide to try to support project X. In simple terms, there are two cases:

Success. Suppose project X is a success in some significant sense, say, the project grows in headcount, budget, floor space, etc. Suppose project X gets some publicity in the company and/or outside. Suppose some major customers hear about project X and tell your marketing people and/or CEO that they want to try X. Etc. Now you can be seen as a bright, rising star, and your management chain from your manager all the way up to but possibly not including the CEO and COB feels threatened by you and will, all together, at the first opportunity, hang you by your toes from a lamppost in the employee parking lot.

Failure. Suppose project X is a failure. Then all the resources you devoted to it will be considered a waste for the company. You will be painted as an incompetent, loose cannon on the deck, and chastised, ostracized, put on the slow track, have a black mark on your career, or just moved out the door.

Commonly there is only one person in the company who can push project X, put up with the blame if X fails, and really benefit from the credit if X succeeds, and that one person is the CEO.

If the CEO sees that you got dumped on for your efforts with project X, then he may shake a finger at the managers in your management chain, but likely you still don't report to the CEO who still needs your management chain for the responsibilities they have been assigned to do.

On the other hand, suppose you decide just to get a list of excuses, that you release only one at a time as needed, for just why project X is 'not appropriate' for your group. That is, you pour cold water on project X and work to kill it. Here you are likely safe from any blame or attacks and don't have to lose some weekends on project X.

So, net, nearly never does anyone get blamed for not innovating.

Really, usually in an organization, there is work to be done, and the management tree is a partition of that work to get it done. No one is holding their breath waiting for innovation to save or even help the company.

The company and its existing products/services, customers, revenue, earnings, stockholders, etc. is a valuable bird in the hand, and any innovation is seen as at best two birds in the bush.

So, possibly one reason for the old 20% time of Google was to let everyone in the organization pursue their case of a project X without blame and, also, to get a hearing, without much risk, in case their project X looks good.

Why stop 20% time? Maybe not much good was coming from the 20% time. Maybe a lot of middle and upper managers got tired of having to evaluate projects they really were not interested in -- a VC can get 2000 contacts from entrepreneurs in a year and invest in 0-3 -- so, that's about 2000 contacts a year tossed in the trash, and maybe Google managers didn't want to evaluate such projects. Maybe the Google top management was concerned that the main work was not getting done fast or well enough. Maybe the 20% time looked like chaos. Whatever.

As we know, Jobs or Woz was at HP, presented to a manager at HP the idea for, say the Apple I, and secretly smiled when the manager said that HP would not be interested.

It remains that some of the most important ideas in computing are authentication, capabilities, and access control lists. These were in good form in the MIT Project MAC computer Multics. Also processor architecture with gate segments, since in Intel's x86 architecture.

Well, Multics was done on a computer from GE, expensive. GE sold their computer division to Honeywell, so Multics was on a Honeywell. Honeywell didn't like selling Multics, and not many were sold -- one sale was in basement of a five sided building on the west bank of the Potomac River. Some engineers at Honeywell saw 'bit sliced' hardware and microcode and concluded that with those two, some extra register sets, a tweaked Fortran compiler, and the Multics hard/software ideas, they could bring up Multics on a single board super-mini computer, sell it, and make money. The story went that the Honeywell managers said that they didn't believe that there could be such a computer, that if there was it wouldn't sell, and even if it did Honeywell would not be interested. So, the engineers started Prime computer, one of the three, along with DEC VAX and DG 'Soul of a New Machine' MV8000, on or near Route 128 in Boston. As I recall, in 1980, Prime yielded the best ROI of any stock on the NYSE. Later Prime got a CEO from a big computer company and went down, down, splash!

It's a very old lesson: Big companies do not, not want to innovate. An explanation doesn't really need the book 'The Innovator's Dilemma' and is simpler -- people acting dumber than paint and, the real cause, getting away with, and even benefiting from, it.

Why? Because nearly no one can be sure that a project X would work. So early on, dropping project X into the bit bucket is not proven to be a disaster. The short term cost is easier to see than the long term gain. Why? Because accurately evaluating a project X is commonly a lot of work and still needs some judgment and with results that really cannot easily be communicated to others, say, higher mangers, the CEO, the Board, security analysts, the tech trade press, or the stockholders. So, dumber than paint is accepted as okay.

Then one of the big opportunities, especially now with the fantastic price/performance of computer hardware, Internet bandwidth, and infrastructure software, is information technology entrepreneurship. Broadly in economic terms we want to automate everything in sight to give higher economic productivity. There should be lots of opportunities, better than wheels, bronze, iron, open ocean sailing, steel, steam, electric power, motors, and lights, internal combustion engines, oil, radio, TV, chemical engineering, "plastics!", etc.

But a bootstrapped entrepreneur can't do a 13 nm microelectronics fabrication facility, an iPhone 10, a Tesla, etc. So, a company with everything in place -- HR, legal, finance, floor space, and cash -- should have a big, huge advantage in innovation, i.e.. powerful, valuable new products that will make a bundle but that small entrepreneurs can't do. So, maybe it's the first HP scientific pocket calculator, the first HP laser/ink jet printer. The Apple iPad, iPhone, etc.

Still, apparently to be good at such 'internal innovation' takes a Jobs. For a Steve Ballmer, John Chambers, Marissa Mayer, Larry Ellison, Page/Brin, maybe the best they can do is to buy a HotMail, YouTube, Tumblr, and just hope not to kill it right away.

Back to my startup!

Re: Google’s “20% time,” which brought you Gmail and AdSense, is now as good as dead

#477
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I give my time for free to Google? Because my entire career- well before I started working here- has been dependent on things that Google has given to me for free. Like Google Search. Search helped me learn to run linux clusters effectively (it was far better than AltaVista for searching for specific error messages) which ensured I had a job, even in the dotcom busts. It helped me learn python, which also p…

I'm not seeing any "generosity" on Google's part, at least from the examples you provided. You certainly seem like a smart guy, working on some cool stuff, so I'm not surprised people are a bit confused (hence the term "brainwashed") by your (pretending to?) not understand the business model of the company you work for. You are giving your time away, for free, to a for profit corporation. That's so irrational it's pa…

I worked in Ads for a year when I started here. I understand the business model of my company quite well :-)

And I still consider what Google provides (search, gmail) "free". Free as in free beer- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratis_versus_libre

I'm certainly not "giving my time away for free": to be clear, I'm a salaried worker, and I choose to work the hours I do. Further, to be clear: Google gives me immense resources to carry out life-saving scientific research, the intellectual property of which belongs to scientists (and the general public), not Google.

Re: Google’s “20% time,” which brought you Gmail and AdSense, is now as good as dead

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Calling 20% time 120% time is fair. Realistically it's hard to do your day job productively and also build a new project from scratch. You have to be willing to put in hours outside of your normal job to be successful. Then it's not 20% time, it's personal time you're giving to your employer for free. Why would you do that? Why not build your projects outside of Google and keep them for yourself (assuming it's a pr…

What happens if your 20% project becomes a product at Google? Do you get rewarded with a share or promotion? In a sense, Google could be acting as a mini-VC for you, so even if you work 120% that is just equivalent you doing a side project hoping it turns into a start up. Except you'd be able to work on different kinds of projects.

I don't really know if there is a standard "share or promotion" for 20% projects that become products. I'm sure some people have received bonuses. I don't think most people who work on 20% projects that become products really care that much about the monetary compensation- it's far more enjoyable to see people use your product happily, than get a wad of cash (at least for me).

Anyway, I think you raise an interesting analogy: working on 20% projects at Google, then using the company's resources to launch the product, does have a number of parallels to VC funding for startups (note: I'm advisor for Google Ventures, so I have some experience with both worlds). In a sense- and nobody everybody will agree with me- Google as an employer is a low-risk, low-capital way to launch my products. Larry and Sergey already took the risks (launching a company with no clear monetization strategy), they figured out a monetization strategy, and now they invest their capital in speculative projects.

Anyway, in my case, after it seemed like my project was in good hands and ready to be a product, I looked for something else interesting to work on. I think the main problem I have working here is that there are too many cool projects I could work on, learning from experienced SWEs and SREs, but I have to stick to one.

Re: Google’s “20% time,” which brought you Gmail and AdSense, is now as good as dead

#479
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I give my time for free to Google? Because my entire career- well before I started working here- has been dependent on things that Google has given to me for free. Like Google Search. Search helped me learn to run linux clusters effectively (it was far better than AltaVista for searching for specific error messages) which ensured I had a job, even in the dotcom busts. It helped me learn python, which also p…

I'm not seeing any "generosity" on Google's part, at least from the examples you provided. You certainly seem like a smart guy, working on some cool stuff, so I'm not surprised people are a bit confused (hence the term "brainwashed") by your (pretending to?) not understand the business model of the company you work for. You are giving your time away, for free, to a for profit corporation. That's so irrational it's pa…

Not the OP, but I just launched a Google-owned open-source project that was developed partly during 20% time and partly during my personal time, so I can share some of my reasoning why I would do this.

I was a startup founder before Google. I called the shots on what I'd work on, owned all the code I produced, and worked when and how I wanted to. A large part of my motivation for writing all this code was to learn things; another large part was to produce stuff that would be a positive contribution to the world. Alas, nobody used my stuff (well, almost nobody - we had a userbase measured in the hundreds), and I didn't get paid for it. So it wasn't exactly sustainable.

In my official job duties, I now write software that's seen by over a billion users. In my unofficial job duties, I'm the maintainer of an active open-source project watched by thousands of people which gets a dozen or so patches per week. When testing this open-source library, I had free availability of thousands of machines and a corpus of billions of documents. When developing it, I had the help and mentorship of experienced coworkers, some of whom had help leadership roles in major open-source projects. I get paid a fat salary for this. I do work longer hours, but it hasn't come at the expense of things I really care about. I go out with friends 3-4 times a week. I have a steady girlfriend. I call my mom every week. Most of the time for this has come out of loafing around on Reddit and Hacker News, where you are also giving your time away, for free, to produce something of value for a for-profit corporation.

In pretty much every dimension I care about, this is a win for me. My software reaches more users. I learn more. I get paid more. I meet more interesting people, and have more of a social life. My professional reputation increases more. I get more experience.

It used to bug me that I was giving away my labor "for free" to my employer, who would then profit handsomely for me. But what I realized is that not all labor has equal value. I used to reap all the fruits of my labor, and those fruits were worth virtually nothing. I'm now in a position where my labor has dramatically more leverage, and much of that is because I use the resources of my employer, and they're entitled to take a cut of it for that reason.

When the time comes where I feel I can accomplish more outside of Google than inside it, I'll quit. That was what drew me to them in the first place, the realization that, as an entrepreneur, all the ideas I had would be better executed as features of existing Google products. If that ever reverses and something that I really want to do would be better accomplished as an individual startup, that's what I'll do.

Re: Google’s “20% time,” which brought you Gmail and AdSense, is now as good as dead

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not seeing any "generosity" on Google's part, at least from the examples you provided. You certainly seem like a smart guy, working on some cool stuff, so I'm not surprised people are a bit confused (hence the term "brainwashed") by your (pretending to?) not understand the business model of the company you work for. You are giving your time away, for free, to a for profit corporation. That's so irrational it's pa…

Not the OP, but I just launched a Google-owned open-source project that was developed partly during 20% time and partly during my personal time, so I can share some of my reasoning why I would do this. I was a startup founder before Google. I called the shots on what I'd work on, owned all the code I produced, and worked when and how I wanted to. A large part of my motivation for writing all this code was to learn th…

That's all perfectly reasonable and very well stated. Your perspective was what I was trying to address with the "If you like working with google systems and resources so much that you are willing to pay your employer to use them then ok, that's a bit weird, but it's your time" line.

If you feel differently than I about Google's contribution to society or the ethics of unpaid overtime cultures in general then even my rather tame "that's a bit weird" might seem wrong to you and that's fair enough, these are opinions after all.

I meant for my comment to address the framing of similar arguments to yours as "repaying Google's generosity". Considering that type of statement really does "sound brainwashed" as another commenter pointed out, I was interested in a better articulated reason which you have definitely provided.

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