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The 1975 Buffett memo that saved the Washington Post's pension

finance.fortune.cnn.com

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Re: The 1975 Buffett memo that saved the Washington Post's pension

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Buffett has always felt efficient market theory is wrong People often refute the EMH without understand that it is a family of hypotheses, from the Strong to the Weak form, with a great deal of subtlety in their concept and meaning. Buffet's argument in the linked excerpts is actually pretty close to a weak form of the EMH: all participants start with broadly similar information and capabilities, so performance nat…

That's a good point. Many people who don't believe in the strong version do actually fall into the weak form.

I think if people just chill out and accept that the strong form is a model that allows us to sketch out a lower bound of possible outcomes, everyone will be better off.

Throwing a model away because it isn't perfect is a case of nirvana fallacy. All models are wrong. We build them because they're mentally tractable. So long as the value of the model exceeds the costs of mismatch, they're a boon.

Re: The 1975 Buffett memo that saved the Washington Post's pension

#92
post #85
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He consistently beats the market and then claims that "managers" cannot. But he isn't beating the market -- he's beating the pants off his followers, people who dutifully buy the same stocks he does. It's the announcement effect -- Buffett buys a given stock, Buffett is a winner, so everyone responds by buying the same stock: self-fulfilling prophecy. The irony is that the timing of the groupie-purchases assures th…

The insult here--"groupie-purchases"--suggests you understand Buffett's existence is a serious blow to your case. As you implicitly acknowledge with your hypothesis of the "announcement effect", the null hypothesis is that Buffett beat the market. It's time you hold yourself to the same standard you demand elsewhere in this thread and prove that "groupies" from 40 years ago maintaining their positions all these years…

> The insult here--"groupie-purchases"--suggests you understand Buffett's existence is a serious blow to your case.

Nonsense. The announcement effect is a well-established distortion of the market:

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/announcment-effect.asp

> ... to your case.

My case? The fact that investment managers cannot produce results has been proven over and over again. It's not my case, it is a simple fact about reality. All you need to do is review the WSJ Dartboard Contest.

http://www.investorhome.com/darts.htm

In the Dartboard Contest, managers had every incentive to prove what they could do -- a success would have made them simultaneously rich and famous. They failed. Any questions?

> As you implicitly acknowledge with your hypothesis of the "announcement effect" ...

"My hypothesis?" You need to learn something about equities. The announcement effect is very well-known.

http://www.economicshelp.org/dictionary/a/announcement-effec...

Do you suppose I wrote all these articles, and talked a bunch of economists into believing in it? For God's sake.

> ... the null hypothesis is that Buffett beat the market.

The null hypothesis is that Buffett did not beat the market based on special skills. The null hypothesis is that Buffett's performance has a pedestrian explanation -- chance. That's what the null hypothesis means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_hypothesis

Quote: "In statistical inference of observed data of a scientific experiment, the null hypothesis refers to a general or default position: that there is no relationship between two measured phenomena, or that a potential medical treatment has no effect."

I can't repair the defects in your education in a series of forum posts -- you will just have to go out and get an education on your own, like a grown-up.

Re: The 1975 Buffett memo that saved the Washington Post's pension

#94
If what he says here is true, the parents of every kid on the planet should test their child for some aptitude in this area--at least a little--because learning your kid was preternaturally adept at, basically, "Making a Lot Of Money" would be the most important thing that ever happened to the kid. Also wouldn't it have been one of the most sensational "news events" of all time, if nothing else, when someone honestly reported Someone Has Found the One Weird Trick To Becoming Really Rich, And It Always Works If You Do It Right. The rise in billionaires I surely would have heard about, at least.

So what's the catch? Why can't I just go and study this book and make a lot money if I think I'm smart, now that I've read this article?

Re: The 1975 Buffett memo that saved the Washington Post's pension

#95
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yet Ed Thorpe, from 1969-88, had 227 months where he made money, and 3 where he lost. First, he didn't beat the market average 227 times in a row -- for most of those periods, he didn't lose money, but then a buy & hold investor also didn't lose money. A meaningful comparison would have to compare his outcomes with that for a buy & hold investor riding the ascending market value by holding a boring, geriatric i…

It is difficult to imagine what sort of evidence will convince you. All sorts of behavior is possible under all sorts of unrealistic models. I'd also like to note the irony of your snarky comment about wishing that those who disagree with you ought to study some math, given the background of managers like Jim Simons. Edit: > First, he didn't beat the market average 227 times in a row -- for most of those periods, he…

> It is difficult to imagine what sort of evidence will convince you.

What are you talking about? There is no evidence for the assumption, and the only reliable evidence stands against it, like the WSJ Dartboard Contest.

If a particular institution does better than the averages, the most likely explanation is chance, and no other explanation has anything resembling scientific evidence. And the Dartboard Contest demonstrates that, when called on to put up or shut up, the professionals weren't able to put up.

> The stock market rose by about 8 or 9% annually during that time. Dismissing his 227 positive months requires absurd contortions ...

No, it requires acknowledging that the market rose by 8 or 9% per annum, as you just pointed out. His performance needs to be compared to the market averages, not to a hypothetical flat market. I can see you're not getting this -- someone says, "I must be a stock genius, because I never saw zero or negative growth in my portfolio." Someone then deflatingly points out, "Neither did the average market, the holdings of retired, risk-averse investors in Ohio."

> ... to even come close to supporting your hypothesis.

It is not my hypothesis, it is the default assumption of people with scientific training -- if there is no evidence, there is no effect. And there is no evidence.

In a pool of ten million investors, a handful will show spectacular performance by chance alone -- this is a mathematical fact -- and those individuals would have to be saints to avoid assuming and claiming they're stock picking geniuses.

Occam's razor is a precept that says the simplest explanation tends to be the right one. The simplest explanation is that some investors come out ahead because of chance. This means the burden of evidence rests with those who would like to claim that stock market performances arise from "secrets of the winners".

That would be you.

Re: The 1975 Buffett memo that saved the Washington Post's pension

#96
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the point of the article is that is difficult to distinguish between luck and skill. Not difficult, impossible. It cannot be established scientifically. No control group, no meaningful controls. > Following your example I can imagine that there is a mechanism (I wouldn't call it surefire) that can improve your odds. And people who write worthless "secrets of the winners" books rely on this very assumption (…

> It would remain secret in perpetuity, the owner(s) of the secret would use it to either drain the market of its capital or foment public doubt about market fairness... If this 'secret' could only be applied in small amounts, then the owner couldn't drain the market. Why do you think Buffett believes large funds can't outperform? You assume any such 'secret' is infinitely scaleable. That's an incorrect assumption. I…

> You assume any such 'secret' is infinitely scaleable.

First, I never said or assumed that. Second, Human greed is, in fact, infinitely scaleable. But this is a silly debate -- obviously the most likely explanation for a spectacular market performance is chance.

> Insider trading is an advantage that exists but doesn't fall into your #1. Has it 'drained the market' or stopped businesses from using the stock market?

In a word, yes -- in a number of cases, companies try to buy themselves out of the stock market, for that and other reasons (like the tyranny of quarterly earnings reports and shortsighted boards of directors).

We're off on a tangent now. We've left the original topic. And the original topic was resolved by noting the WSJ Dartboard Contest, where managers had every incentive to show what they could accomplish, but instead they failed, spectacularly, in public, for years.

Re: The 1975 Buffett memo that saved the Washington Post's pension

#97
post #52

I had a funny thought reading the letter (the actual letter at Forbes, not the vacuous qz.com summary). The letter is type-written, with nice tables and footnotes. That probably means that it was either hand-written by Buffet or by a secretary (or stenographed or whatever), and then given to a typist to format. In turn that means that some random lowly typist got to snoop on all this premium investment advice, that 2…

Probably not. It's a sad fact that women are on average disinclined towards risk-taking, and investment is a classical risk-taking activity. This effect must have been even more pronounced in the 70s.

Re: The 1975 Buffett memo that saved the Washington Post's pension

#98
post #94

If what he says here is true, the parents of every kid on the planet should test their child for some aptitude in this area--at least a little--because learning your kid was preternaturally adept at, basically, "Making a Lot Of Money" would be the most important thing that ever happened to the kid. Also wouldn't it have been one of the most sensational "news events" of all time, if nothing else, when someone honestly…

> So what's the catch?

The catch is that testing people for an unexplained adeptness at making money in equities is essentially certain to produce a handful of "successes" that arise from chance, not talent.

Given a pool of ten million investors, all playing the market, and all making random picks, it is certain that a handful will succeed spectacularly because of chance. I know because I have modeled this sort of thing with computer programs, each of which produce "winners" simply by making random picks.

With a large enough population, some will "succeed" spectacularly, through chance. Those successes will find it hard to accept that their success arose from chance rather than genius, just as happens in real life.

> Why can't I just go and study this book and make a lot money if I think I'm smart, now that I've read this article?

If there really was a book that contained secrets to beat the market, secrets that worked, that were reliable, that anyone could put into practice, businesses would abandon equities as a way to raise operating capital. After all, why should they line the pockets of a bunch of non-productive speculators? What possible incentive would they have?

The only reason the equities market works is because investors get a fair return on their investment, consistent with the risks they take, and businesses get operating capital at a reasonable rate as well. Both parties to the transaction get a fair deal. All this talk about making a killing in stocks using "secrets of the winners" overlooks the fact that, if it were possible, if someone could really make a fortune by something other than blind luck, reliably, deterministically, the market would collapse.

And for the life of me, I can't understand why people find this so hard to understand.

Re: The 1975 Buffett memo that saved the Washington Post's pension

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Buffett has always felt efficient market theory is wrong People often refute the EMH without understand that it is a family of hypotheses, from the Strong to the Weak form, with a great deal of subtlety in their concept and meaning. Buffet's argument in the linked excerpts is actually pretty close to a weak form of the EMH: all participants start with broadly similar information and capabilities, so performance nat…

That's a good point. Many people who don't believe in the strong version do actually fall into the weak form.

But there is a very significant difference between the two. The strong form leads you to believe that it is impossible to expect to do better than the average even with a Herculean effort. The weak form allows that it is possible to beat the market, even by a lot, if you have insight or capabilities that most of the market lacks.

This leads to wholely different conclusions. In (1), a cheap index fund is the only investment option that isn't equivalent to gambling. This is comforting to believe, because you could feel completely comfortable in not spending any effort on researching your investments. In (2), it is okay to buy a modest position in Google in 2004 because your knowledge of the untapped potential of the Internet hints that Google could be much more important than the (median) skeptic believes.

Perhaps most importantly, if you are in camp (2) you will consistently have your investment choices denounced by those in camp (1), which gets very annoying.

Re: The 1975 Buffett memo that saved the Washington Post's pension

#100
The title is misleading, but Warren Buffett is right.

The more money you manage, the harder it is to beat the market as a trader. However, if you're playing with a modest amount of money, you can play the market, since moving small amounts of money around is much easier than say, 20 billion...

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