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Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

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Re: Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who is going to decide what's a "degree in bullshit" and what's a "gussied up diploma mill?" What metrics would they use? Libertarians tend to like the idea. But short of that, it's difficult to vote for reform that lands between perpetuate-the-problem and screw-an-entire-generation. We can fix the problem of paying for education, but that solution isn't going to be found anywhere near the student loan debate.

The schools are in the best position to underwrite loans. They should be the ones loaning out educations. That also has the advantage of giving the schools a stake in the marketability of their graduates.

>The schools are in the best position to underwrite loans. They should be the ones loaning out educations.

But the schools are profiting immensely from the difference between the perceived value of a degree and the actual value. They'll never get into the loan business without being forced.

But I agree they should have some skin in the game. My favorite idea on that end is students should be able to partially default on loans, and the schools should be required to share the loss with taxpayers.

Re: Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

#113
post #7

Amazing, perspective is everything. I don't deny that college kids are being taken advantage of. Graduating from a small liberal arts college in South Dakota that no one's ever heard of with a degree is Culture Studies and 80k in debt really is a rip off. The flipside of this coin however is someone like me. My parents are immigrants and I was the first to go to school. To my parents, the fact that someone would be e…

Part of the reason prices have gone up so much is that credit has become so easy. 50 years ago, if you wanted to go to college, you went, and the prices were reasonable because people could not afford a lot of money for it, and no one would lend it to them. There is almost no downward price pressure on college costs, and there is upward price pressure: since the students don't care about the price, they always want t…

Part of the reason prices have gone up so much is that credit has become so easy.

Think of it as a perverse incentive for collusion between the schools and finance providers to milk the students through the mechanism of easier credit.

Re: Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

#115
post #7

Amazing, perspective is everything. I don't deny that college kids are being taken advantage of. Graduating from a small liberal arts college in South Dakota that no one's ever heard of with a degree is Culture Studies and 80k in debt really is a rip off. The flipside of this coin however is someone like me. My parents are immigrants and I was the first to go to school. To my parents, the fact that someone would be e…

You used these loans wisely. When did you go to Cal?

I was a grad student there in 1999-2000, and the tuition for the year was only a little over $4,000. It's much higher than that now, about $15,000 for the year. That's still relatively low, assuming that you're an academic student. Professional schools can charge what they like ("data science" is 60K!)

It's still possible to get an excellent education for less money. Part of this is that we need a cultural shift as well as an institutional one. Four years of cal is now very expensive (about 60K in tuition). But a lot of immigrants (many in my neighborhood) go to 2 years of community college (while living at home to keep costs down), finish at a UC, and study something with good job prospects. That's not reading poetry by the the leafy glen next to a beautiful old building, but at least it is affordable. I suppose I shouldn't just say "immigrants", I do know california natives who do this to, plenty of them, but it doesn't really fit the traditional middle class notion of "4 years of college, away from the parents".

Also - Cal has a good name, but rankings like US News and World Report haven't helped either. They reward colleges for everything that costs money, but they don't reward colleges for keeping costs under control or for enrolling low income students. Not a single public institution in the USNWR undergrad top 20, including UC Berkeley.

Bill Bennet, the republican and quite conservative former secretary of Education, made some very good points about this in a recent book "is college worth it". His take on it is, if you get into stanford, go. If you are inclined to study petroleum engineering, go (PE used as a stand-in for highly employable majors), even if you go to a small college in South Dakota (though if it's engineering you're studying, state schools are often more prestigious than their private counterparts, especially in the western states).

The danger is in between. Don't go to an unknown third tier school and run up a huge debt studying liberal arts - or, if you do, make sure you double major with something that will lead to better employment.

One thing - I don't want to give the impression that I think a cultural shift is all that is needed. Students do need to turn away from the high-cost model, but the government did play a role in this problem. Unfortunately, making loans available wasn't helpful to many students. By guaranteeing the loans, the government made it possible for students to borrow far more than a private lender would have considered prudent. By changing the bankruptcy laws around student loans, the government created a far more poisonous form of debt for students. And then lastly, by making the money so freely available, the government allowed institutions to raise their prices - so even if students wanted to "just say no" to high prices, institutions knew they could charge this cause someone would take out the loan. In short, the gov't may have ensured that the low cost education that would have been demanded never emerged.

Re: Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like so much else the baby boomers ruined this. When they went to college it was inexpensive enough to work your way through and most of the faculty was full time moderately paid professors. Now tuition at many places is more than the national median household income, and the most of the faculty is made up of very poorly paid adjutants with a thin gerontocracy layer of tenured professors taking up most of the faculty…

I don't think the boomers ruined this one, although they were in the right place at the right time to blame them. When 1) employers are allowed to discriminate against the non-college educated, 2) going to college becomes the default instead of the exception, and 3) there is no downward price pressure on educational costs, I think the results are inevitable. Here is something really shocking we could do: make educati…

>I don't think the boomers ruined this one, although they were in the right place at the right time to blame them.

Who then? Boomers have had all of the political power for the last thirty years. They will probably hold it for another decade.

Re: Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

#117
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying, "A good solution is to lower the price of education." I agree. I think we all would. But how? Loans are already very optional - that's a nonsolution.

Make the government pay for education.

You will not make things more efficient by having them run by the government, you will only create another unfunded mandate. While it may seem that it is free if the government pays for it, obviously someone pays. The least cost effective way to run something is through a government bureaucracy, that should be pretty clear by now.

Re: Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

#118
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the reason prices have gone up so much is that credit has become so easy. 50 years ago, if you wanted to go to college, you went, and the prices were reasonable because people could not afford a lot of money for it, and no one would lend it to them. There is almost no downward price pressure on college costs, and there is upward price pressure: since the students don't care about the price, they always want t…

the core problem with college loans is that they are non-dischargeable. this means that no matter what the student's ultimate financial situation (long term unemployed, finances wiped out, etc) they still have to pay down the debt, and it can't be wiped out in bankruptcy. This stands in contrast to virtually every kind of loan out there, which can be discharged (written off). As a result, there is less risk for the l…

> the great sin in the student loan market is the online degree mills, which target relatively vulnerable segments of the population, all funded by loans. for example: did you know that online universities cost almost the same as physical ones? that makes absolutely no sense when you think about it, but i don't think many of their students do. online only should be a fraction of the rate.

I believe part of this is the convenience issue. I finished my MBA 4 years ago, and at the time the school was pushing online classes pretty hard. And the online classes cost more than regular classes.

(Faculty also commented that they were pressured to give higher grades than they believed were earned because of the profit component, and few argued they learned better online. But they sure can be convenient.)

Re: Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

#119
post #7

Amazing, perspective is everything. I don't deny that college kids are being taken advantage of. Graduating from a small liberal arts college in South Dakota that no one's ever heard of with a degree is Culture Studies and 80k in debt really is a rip off. The flipside of this coin however is someone like me. My parents are immigrants and I was the first to go to school. To my parents, the fact that someone would be e…

Not to belittle your accomplishment, but you were very lucky to have parents who lived in California, which still has the best public colleges in the US. People whose parents lived in the other 49 states had to either go to a worse (sometimes much worse) school than Cal, or shell out $250K for a private degree.

I don't buy it.

I went to one of the most expensive private not-for-profit schools in the US (top 20 net-cost, going by http://collegecost.ed.gov/catc/#) and had exactly fuck-all for scholarships. I didn't shell out anywhere near $250k.

Are you assuming med school or something? As far as I can tell, the median debt for med school grads from private schools is barely half of $250k. The most expensive I can find still falls short (barely, to be fair): http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-gradu...

Re: Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

#120
post #7

Amazing, perspective is everything. I don't deny that college kids are being taken advantage of. Graduating from a small liberal arts college in South Dakota that no one's ever heard of with a degree is Culture Studies and 80k in debt really is a rip off. The flipside of this coin however is someone like me. My parents are immigrants and I was the first to go to school. To my parents, the fact that someone would be e…

"In some countries, you don't even have the OPTION to take out a loan to go to school"

In some countries, like mine (Uruguay) university-level education is free :) (though postgraduate studies are paid).

I think China is the biggest example of free university education. EDIT: I was wrong, about U$ 2000/year and rising apparently.

At least our bazillion psychologists and communication majors (equivalent to the dreaded "English majors" in the U.S.) are not saddled with debt, though a non-specialist psychologist can expect to earn less than a store clerk or McDonald's employee.

Continuing edit: Sweden and other countries also have "free" college education:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/05/the...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_education

List of countries with free post-secondary education (from Wikipedia)

Algeria

Argentina

Bhutan

Cuba

Denmark

Egypt

Estonia

Finland

France

Greece

Italy

India

Malta

Mauritius

Morocco

Norway

Oman

Pakistan

Russia

Saudi Arabia

Scotland

Spain

Sri Lanka

Trinidad and Tobago

Turkey

Barbados

Kenya

United Arab Emirates

Uruguay

I was wrong about China, but apparently it is free in India.

One major difference is that here in Uruguay you don't have entrance exams, and it's free for foreigners (we get several Chilean students, where it is not free).

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