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“People simply empty out”

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Re: “People simply empty out”

#161

Post by tankbot »

vineel wrote: post #150
tankbot wrote: post #129

Can I just say that I love Charles Bukowski? If you've never read him go buy his books now. There's so much humanity in there. Some will think he's a downer or depressing, but I think he's genius. His life reminds me of this quote by Hokusai: When I was 50 I had published a universe of designs. But all I have done before the the age of 70 is not worth bothering with. At 75 I'll have learned something of the pattern o…

Are there any specific books you recommend?

Run With the Hunted and Love is a Dog from Hell spring to mind, but for me half the fun of reading him is just jumping in randomly. His life was chaos so it's fitting. If you read enough about "Hank" a picture of who he was will start to materialize.

Since he's dead and not able to spend your book sales money on booze and horses, he'd probably be ok with you just reading his stuff online for free[0]. He is also great to listen to, there are a lot of recordings of his readings that you can find in the usual places. The poems are filled with a kind of beautiful carnage which contrasts the even tone of his delivery. Like, "Yeah, that crazy shit happened but so what?"

One of my favorites as a teaser to start with:

  Rain

  a symphony orchestra.
  there is a thunderstorm,
  they are playing a Wagner overture
  and the people leave their seats under the trees
  and run inside to the pavilion
  the women giggling, the men pretending calm,
  wet cigarettes being thrown away,
  Wagner plays on, and then they are all under the 
  pavilion. the birds even come in from the trees
  and enter the pavilion and then it is the Hungarian 
  Rhapsody #2 by Lizst, and it still rains, but look,
  one man sits alone in the rain
  listening. the audience notices him. they turn
  and look. the orchestra goes about its
  business. the man sits in the night in the rain, 
  listening. there is something wrong with him,
  isn't there?
  he came to hear the
  music.
[0] http://www.poemhunter.com/charles-bukowski/poems/

p.s. I can't speak for the quality of that site, you may have better luck elsewhere. When I looked up Rain all I got was the first line, so it's possible that other poems have errors.

Re: “People simply empty out”

#162

Post by bobbyi_settv »

tankbot wrote: post #129

Can I just say that I love Charles Bukowski? If you've never read him go buy his books now. There's so much humanity in there. Some will think he's a downer or depressing, but I think he's genius. His life reminds me of this quote by Hokusai: When I was 50 I had published a universe of designs. But all I have done before the the age of 70 is not worth bothering with. At 75 I'll have learned something of the pattern o…

I'd also like to recommend Bukowski Tavern in Inman Square, Cambridge, MA. They have Bukowski's writings all of the walls and are generally a good place to get a beer. There's a second location in Boston, but I haven't been to that one: http://bukowskitavern.net/

Re: “People simply empty out”

#163

Post by rphlx »

jessedhillon wrote: post #119
orofino wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always kind of shake my head at this. On a board with many people making 100k+ per year, who are the "societal overlords" you're referencing. Sure there are people that make much more than that, but anything beyond 80k allows a person to save quite a bit and "quit" the rat race earlier if they like.

Indeed. It never seems to never occur to some people that emergent behavior, arising from the (mis)alignment of incentives in a complex system, can give rise to behavior so bizarre and purpose-directed that it all seems deliberate -- as yet is nonetheless emergent. The whole system is a fractal, all the way to the top -- there are many uber-wealthy folks whose experiences are subjectively as miserable as Bukowski's w…

Our current global economic system was intentionally designed by (and for) a very small Elite, over roughly 4 centuries. Those at the very top are certainly not typical victims [1] of the system they carefully create; indeed, history shows they constantly and incrementally revise it to their benefit.

[1] They're only victims if they go too far, trigger civil unrest, and wind up on the losing side of the guillotine.

"I must Create a System, or be enslav'd by another Man's" -William Blake

Re: “People simply empty out”

#164

Post by dsbmac »

philwelch wrote: post #77
enraged_camel wrote: post #32

>>You know my old saying, "Slavery was never abolished, it was only extended to include all the colors." Some people balk at the idea of "wage slavery," primarily because they think it is so different from the traditional slavery that it should not be called that. But the question is, if you are doing something and the alternative is starvation and death, are you really a free human being? If you think about it for a…

There's no state of nature where people are free from starvation without having to work. Even hunters and gatherers have to hunt and gather.

This is true but the work that they do, they or their families will benefit 100%. "Free labor". It is honest equitable work. The system in place siphons that labor by people who control capital. Income inequality.

Re: “People simply empty out”

#165

Post by hoffcoder »

blackhole wrote: post #5

I feel like too many people get sucked into the idea of furthering their career, to the point that they forget to further their own life. What is the point of existence if we never get around to experiencing it? "It's not the things we do in life that we regret on our death bed, it is the things we do not." - Randy Pausch

It's sad that most of the people I meet today can only be described as 'careerists'. I hardly see any artists or people who really enjoy what they do. And you know what your environment can do to you: it can make you or break you. Having an unhappy person next to you is a cyclic and disturbing process. The negativity percolates to unimaginable proportions. Negativity is often more affecting than positivity. That is why it is so important to 'engineer' your surroundings with care.

Re: “People simply empty out”

#166

Post by [deleted] »

tankbot wrote: post #129

Can I just say that I love Charles Bukowski? If you've never read him go buy his books now. There's so much humanity in there. Some will think he's a downer or depressing, but I think he's genius. His life reminds me of this quote by Hokusai: When I was 50 I had published a universe of designs. But all I have done before the the age of 70 is not worth bothering with. At 75 I'll have learned something of the pattern o…

[deleted]

Re: “People simply empty out”

#167

Post by scotty79 »

ahomescu1 wrote: post #127
wffurr wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Just wow. Simply amazing you can think that given the distribution of wealth in the world. The only reason the vast majority of us have to work to eat is because the vast majority of the proceeds from our labor go to benefit a tiny global elite. For quite a long time now, the technical means have existed to provide the basics of life to every human being on the planet at a modest cost. And yet we don't – instead…

Also, keep in mind that money is not wealth. This "global elite" is not hoarding food, fuel or other basic necessities, they only have the money. New money can be printed, old money can be destroyed, new currencies can be created. The only real wealth is goods and services created/rendered by working people, and this "global elite" doesn't really have a strong grip on that.

Yes. Money is just a way of figuring out how much of the economical output of the whole system each money holder can use. By hoarding money rich don't do much harm.

But because they have so much money they can hoard resources. And they do to earn more like so: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/27/opinion/goldman-sachss-alu... They also hoard food: http://www.dw.de/germanys-dz-bank-ends-food-speculation-trad... They also can hoard companies. Buy them and harm them. This happens to most acquired startups.

The problem is not that they have a lot of money. The problem is what they do with the money. Of course it's not all bad. There are things that rich people made that benefited everybody, but I'm guessing most such things were created on the way to getting rich.

Re: “People simply empty out”

#168

Post by dnautics »

tanzam75 wrote: post #125
dnautics wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

both are terrible measures, as a long-term measure gold isn't so bad, but for point-to-point comparisons (as is done in the parent post), gold goes through some crazy speculative bubbles. The CPI is dastardly manipulated figures. (hedonic adjustments, substitutions)

> The CPI is dastardly manipulated figures. (hedonic adjustments, substitutions) That's not manipulation. That's just trying to calculate an accurate number. If you do no substitutions, then you will end up being a Collectible Goods Index, rather than a Consumer Goods Index. It makes no sense to calculate inflation in 2013 based on a basket of goods from 1919. But that creates another problem. If you do no hedonic ad…

I'm not suggesting there is a good way to measure inflation. But there is no objective way to make these adjustments. To suggest that the official adjustments are better for some reason is just a stealthy appeal to authority.

Re: “People simply empty out”

#169

Post by ctdonath »

wffurr wrote: post #115
ctdonath wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The system isn't capitalism, it's life: you don't work, you don't eat. The author was one of the few whose work is both enjoyable on its own and worth enough to others to survive on, capitalism in the form of sponsorship. Capitalism at least gives a generally fair exchange of work for value; the alternatives amount to institutionalized theft.

Wow. Just wow. Simply amazing you can think that given the distribution of wealth in the world. The only reason the vast majority of us have to work to eat is because the vast majority of the proceeds from our labor go to benefit a tiny global elite. For quite a long time now, the technical means have existed to provide the basics of life to every human being on the planet at a modest cost. And yet we don't – instead…

Average world per capita income, world GDP divided by population, is US$12,000/yr (PPP accounted for). That counts as the basic poverty line in the USA.

The tiny global elite you impugne does not hoard anything relevant. They are just a hose thru which a lot of high velocity money flows, most of their income flowing right back out to others. Without them, the structure for working for that $12,000 average income would collapse and you'd be working a lot harder for a lot less net return.

Take that high density money away from that elite, and you'll discover two things happen. One, you'll be out of a job and relegated to living exactly as a large percentage of world population does: eking out a meager existence from the land to paltry returns; that elite holds the high-wage system together because they profit from it, and without those returns there is little incentive to make such systems work. Two, averaging out all income & wealth so everyone has the same would soon coalesce back into the distribution we have now: those expecting a no-effort living wage produce nothing and get nothing for it, while those enticed by work*risk=profit will find a way and earn that which the others will give to survive.

Yes, institutionalized theft: those who work and take risks having their earnings taken by threat of force by those having no moral & economic interest therein or beyond what was contracted for in a competitive market. Go live off the land for a year, excluding any connection to "the elite", and then tell me about the justice of someone taking the fruits of your labors from you simply because they exist (choosing not to produce).

Re: “People simply empty out”

#170

Post by ctdonath »

scotty79 wrote: post #158
ctdonath wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The system isn't capitalism, it's life: you don't work, you don't eat. The author was one of the few whose work is both enjoyable on its own and worth enough to others to survive on, capitalism in the form of sponsorship. Capitalism at least gives a generally fair exchange of work for value; the alternatives amount to institutionalized theft.

> you don't work, you don't eat That's not life. It's just a rule that comes out of the fact that people won't care about you if you give them no benefit. It's only natural but is it right or humane?

That's not life.

You won't have life if you don't work - or coerce it from others.

World average income equals the USA poverty line. That doesn't give much room for the productive to support the unproductive. Charity, yes indeed, but there's an unsupportably growing number who are quite capable of supporting themselves but demand others do instead.

The "right and humane" step is choosing to give to others freely, not to put a gun to someone's head and demand what's not yours.

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