Bukowski = automatic upvote
“People simply empty out”
151–160 of 477 posts
Re: “People simply empty out”
#152>>You know my old saying, "Slavery was never abolished, it was only extended to include all the colors." Some people balk at the idea of "wage slavery," primarily because they think it is so different from the traditional slavery that it should not be called that. But the question is, if you are doing something and the alternative is starvation and death, are you really a free human being? If you think about it for a…
I agree that wage slavery exists but let's be serious, slavery in many societies, including the US was a brutal existence that included beatings & intentional separations of families, often even if you as a slave were compliant in the system. If you weren't compliant you were subject to torture and/or a violent death. The cruelty of slavery stretches far beyond the lack of freedom you're describing here.
Okay, you have an excellent point that modern slavery is a kinder, more gentle version. Now, instead of being beaten physically, you are gutted mentally via long hours and unreasonable schedules. Now, you "choose" to live away from the rest of your family because a job could earn you so much more money.
Even the punishment has become more moral and more evenly applied to all to of course avoid discrimination. You are subject to mental assault by all others and even by yourself when you do not follow the game of the wage slave. A violent death? A violent death would be a needle prick relative to the 60 years you are expected to slowly break yourself in half.
Indeed, the lack of freedom is but one facet, but honestly, while we have become more free have we really gained anything in terms of long term ability to do what we actually desire or be our own masters?
Re: “People simply empty out”
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
Life cannot be sustained without effort. Does real freedom entail freedom from the demands of reality? The question I have is, whose obligation would you say it is to provide a job that you consider good enough?
>>Life cannot be sustained without effort. In this day and age, sustaining life should not require 40+ hours of work per week. As a society we are producing a ridiculous amount of surplus, and then conditioning ourselves to consume that surplus so that we can produce even more. Where does it end?
It ends in global financial collapse. Then rises again! The US will gradually fade from dominance as every other leader before it. I wouldn't be surprised if we're witnessing it's decline right now. I don't see how it gets out of the major systemic mess it is in. Detroit, Louisiana, etc. is how it begins. A first world country bit by bit reverting to third-world status.
Until some place has a successful anarchic-type revolution (a la Spain & Paris) without an outside power coming in to overthrow them we're stuck with this legacy economic/political system and the best we can do is civilize it with prudent regulation (which we can barely do because it's been systemically corrupted).
Re: “People simply empty out”
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
100K is the point where you have the illusion of financial freedom because you can purchase a BMW, buy a nice home in a bland cul-de-sac with a bunch of nameless white dudes, and it's not until you're in your 40s and you're in danger to losing the job to a robot or a whipper-snapper that you understand that kind of "freedom" is actually enslavement. You made the wrong choice because you wasted your life buying plasti…
Here's the problem though - you don't need to buy the BMW or the suburban McMansion. Save that money instead and when you're in your 40 you can tell the boss that he should give you job to a whipper-snapper, you're headed to Thailand. No one holds a gun to the consumer's head, they just convince themselves they need thing. Then they whine when they haven't saved more than 300k for retirement at age 50 and social secu…
Definitely, and it's of course unfair to paint everyone with a broad brush as I know folks who are making near 100k and are donating 30% or more of their salary to charity. I just feel really angry about the US and the American culture since taking a recent trip overseas to one of those "third world" countries we roll our eyes about. Maybe not even angry, just sad and disappointed. We have so much production here, so much money, so much creativity and people seem to have nothing but fear and animosity. We've taken the richest nation ever assembled and used our resources to build a proto-police surveillance state and empire of nothing when we could have fixed the fucking world or at least fed and clothed most of it.
Probably though I just need to quit Facebook again.
Re: “People simply empty out”
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
If I may ask, where do you live? Do you have family to support? I am under the assumption I could do it a lot cheaper if I were to choose not to have a family and to live in rural or semi-rural North Carolina. (Edit: I picked North Carolina becuase that's where I already am.)
No, Raleigh NC.
Thanks for the response, and wow, we are actually very close geographically.
I'm surprised that you came up with $25,000.
Re: “People simply empty out”
#156Can I just say that I love Charles Bukowski? If you've never read him go buy his books now. There's so much humanity in there. Some will think he's a downer or depressing, but I think he's genius. His life reminds me of this quote by Hokusai: When I was 50 I had published a universe of designs. But all I have done before the the age of 70 is not worth bothering with. At 75 I'll have learned something of the pattern o…
Are there any specific books you recommend?
Ham on Rye
Re: “People simply empty out”
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wow. Just wow. Simply amazing you can think that given the distribution of wealth in the world. The only reason the vast majority of us have to work to eat is because the vast majority of the proceeds from our labor go to benefit a tiny global elite. For quite a long time now, the technical means have existed to provide the basics of life to every human being on the planet at a modest cost. And yet we don't – instead…
I don't think you understand basic economics. > For quite a long time now, the technical means have existed to provide the basics of life to every human being on the planet at a modest cost. Are you sure we have all the fuel and land to feed, house and clothe everyone? And if so, who's going to work for that? If everyone gets food and shelter for free, I'm not working to provide that. The reality is, food needs to be…
At work, do you help your co-worker without asking, or do you have them sign a contract and exchange money?
Re: “People simply empty out”
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, it's about a system, capitalism, that gives most no choice in the matter.
The system isn't capitalism, it's life: you don't work, you don't eat. The author was one of the few whose work is both enjoyable on its own and worth enough to others to survive on, capitalism in the form of sponsorship. Capitalism at least gives a generally fair exchange of work for value; the alternatives amount to institutionalized theft.
> you don't work, you don't eat
That's not life. It's just a rule that comes out of the fact that people won't care about you if you give them no benefit. It's only natural but is it right or humane?
Re: “People simply empty out”
#159>>You know my old saying, "Slavery was never abolished, it was only extended to include all the colors." Some people balk at the idea of "wage slavery," primarily because they think it is so different from the traditional slavery that it should not be called that. But the question is, if you are doing something and the alternative is starvation and death, are you really a free human being? If you think about it for a…
Life cannot be sustained without effort. Does real freedom entail freedom from the demands of reality? The question I have is, whose obligation would you say it is to provide a job that you consider good enough?
Perhaps society and its culture as a whole. Directly, it could be the community you live in or perhaps government.
Two examples:
1) I read an article where the writer took a job somewhere in the Pacific or Southeast in a non-heavily developed area. When he gets to the village he has no place to stay. How will I live?
What happens, which as a Westerner he did not expect, was that soon the community gathered at a spot and over the next few days built him his house! It was simple but in line with the community standard. The expectation was that when someone else had a need (maybe a house) he would return the favor.
2) In the scandinavian model, I believe you get schooling paid for until you find a job and then you have to pay the gov't back. Which is sort of the reverse in NA where you pay upfront and hope to recoup the cost yourself. With that model it seems the gov't has incentive to ensure there are enough jobs so that they can recoup costs.
Re: “People simply empty out”
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wow. Just wow. Simply amazing you can think that given the distribution of wealth in the world. The only reason the vast majority of us have to work to eat is because the vast majority of the proceeds from our labor go to benefit a tiny global elite. For quite a long time now, the technical means have existed to provide the basics of life to every human being on the planet at a modest cost. And yet we don't – instead…
> The only reason the vast majority of us have to work to eat is because the vast majority of the proceeds from our labor go to benefit a tiny global elite. Explain how this works logically. Do you honestly believe that if you simply took most of the money from rich people, that you would be able to sustainably feed everyone else? Have you considered all, if any, of the potential consequences of this action? > For qu…
> Define justice.
At least a setup where right to live is actual right to live and does not degrade to right to not get killed.