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“People simply empty out”

lettersofnote.com

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Re: “People simply empty out”

#131

Post by nsxwolf »

mattm wrote: post #98
dictum wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>he suggested people should work to age 80, but work proportionally less in all the years up to there. At 70, your body is generally not able to do the same things you were doing at 20/30, at least not with the same ease. A 75 year old man could work as hard as a 25 year old man, but the same amount of work will probably take a greater toll on his health. In a way, seems like his scheme is pretty much geared to make…

And why is the body not capable of doing the same things at 70? Is it because you overworked it earlier on?

No, because it's old.

Re: “People simply empty out”

#134

Post by tanzam75 »

mikeash wrote: post #51
dnautics wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

both are terrible measures, as a long-term measure gold isn't so bad, but for point-to-point comparisons (as is done in the parent post), gold goes through some crazy speculative bubbles. The CPI is dastardly manipulated figures. (hedonic adjustments, substitutions)

We all know that the Big Mac Index is the proper way to measure differences in money value. Assuming the Big Mac was still 45 cents in 1969 (as it was when it was introduced in 1967), and using The Economist's average US price of $4.56 for 2013, we get a roughly 10x increase, so it's worth about $1,000 today. That's substantially different from the CPI-based value. I wasn't quite expecting that.

McDonalds claims that the Big Mac cost 49 cents at introduction. [1]

Also, imports have helped to keep inflation low. The Big Mac cannot be imported. Thus, you would expect it to show a higher rate of increase than overall prices.

Source:

[1] http://www.mcdepk.com/piratesofthecaribbean/mediadocs/big_ma...

Re: “People simply empty out”

#135

Post by Houshalter »

njharman wrote: post #78
rollo_tommasi wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've missed the point of the letter entirely. It's not about people who are obsessed with their work, it's about people who have no choice in the matter.

No, it's about a system, capitalism, that gives most no choice in the matter.

Capitalism doesn't really have much to do with it. I'm all for something like a basic income to help even out inequality and give people a safety net to fall back on, but that's still pretty much capitalism.

Re: “People simply empty out”

#136

Post by cgag »

ritchiea wrote: post #92
enraged_camel wrote: post #32

>>You know my old saying, "Slavery was never abolished, it was only extended to include all the colors." Some people balk at the idea of "wage slavery," primarily because they think it is so different from the traditional slavery that it should not be called that. But the question is, if you are doing something and the alternative is starvation and death, are you really a free human being? If you think about it for a…

I agree that wage slavery exists but let's be serious, slavery in many societies, including the US was a brutal existence that included beatings & intentional separations of families, often even if you as a slave were compliant in the system. If you weren't compliant you were subject to torture and/or a violent death. The cruelty of slavery stretches far beyond the lack of freedom you're describing here.

Call it whatever you want, you're still not free.

Re: “People simply empty out”

#137

Post by teeja »

philwelch wrote: post #77
enraged_camel wrote: post #32

>>You know my old saying, "Slavery was never abolished, it was only extended to include all the colors." Some people balk at the idea of "wage slavery," primarily because they think it is so different from the traditional slavery that it should not be called that. But the question is, if you are doing something and the alternative is starvation and death, are you really a free human being? If you think about it for a…

There's no state of nature where people are free from starvation without having to work. Even hunters and gatherers have to hunt and gather.

From what I've read, the hunter-gatherers still on Earth have to work about 2 hours each day. For everything.

Of course they don't have all the fancy toys. Or the worries and medications. Running away from an existence you've never really been given time to understand. Bukowski's right about how it empties you out. But unless you're lucky as him, few options have been left you. The land's all owned, and the "hunting" is long-gone.

In the end, only the market is free. Until the day you drop it and turn away.

Re: “People simply empty out”

#138

Post by Afforess »

javert wrote: post #76
Afforess wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People buy things they can't afford, with money that they don't have, to impress people that they don't like I realized I could live off of $25000/yr and maintain a modestly comfortable lifestyle at the same time. I am on track to retire before I am 40. Anyone can do it. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/22/getting-rich-from-...

If I may ask, where do you live? Do you have family to support? I am under the assumption I could do it a lot cheaper if I were to choose not to have a family and to live in rural or semi-rural North Carolina. (Edit: I picked North Carolina becuase that's where I already am.)

No, Raleigh NC.

Re: “People simply empty out”

#139

Post by tankbot »

sown wrote: post #110
sliverstorm wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you are a hedonist, maximum leisure in your prime working years and minimum leisure in old age don't make sense. Personally, I've found work matured both me and my brothers, gave us more perspective, and generally improved us as human beings. Without including the chance to really mature, you are basically talking about extending adolescence, and we already complain about how irresponsible and short-sighted tw…

When you say 'work' you have to be be explicit in what you mean. Do you mean 'work' as it has come to mean in the industrial capitalist revolution way? Or the kind of 'work' that, say, a forager/gather type society would do? It could mean effort towards creating something new and neat, like music or story telling. The reason I ask is because without distinctions, it is difficult to tell what your motivations are and…

I took "work" to mean purpose, which applies in either case.

The problem comes when people limit themselves to a singular purpose and spend the rest of their time being consumers. The don't learn and grow and so end up in this rut for the duration. You're left with aging, atrophied, one-dimensional automatons who don't know anything else besides the grind and T.V. to relax in the evening. Rinse, repeat. When they retire they have no idea what to do with themselves and the thought of figuring it out probably makes them anxious so they stick to what they know.

Speaking of which, I gotta go. TMZ is on soon...

Re: “People simply empty out”

#140

Post by dsbmac »

sown wrote: post #107
enraged_camel wrote: post #32

>>You know my old saying, "Slavery was never abolished, it was only extended to include all the colors." Some people balk at the idea of "wage slavery," primarily because they think it is so different from the traditional slavery that it should not be called that. But the question is, if you are doing something and the alternative is starvation and death, are you really a free human being? If you think about it for a…

>But the question is, if you are doing something and the alternative is starvation and death, are you really a free human being? If you think about it for a while, the answer becomes clear: you are not free. Thomas Jefferson would have agreed with you. His idea of America was the idea that there would be many small farms where people could be more or less self-sufficient and work would have instrinsic meaning. Of cou…

Lincoln agreed as well. He did not endorse wage labor for similar reasons outlined by enraged_camel. That man was no dummy concerning slavery.

Lincoln advocated 'free labor' as the moral and honest form of labor. Which took as a given that labor is greater than capital. Its proceeds should benefit completely its worker and his family not siphoned by the few who have capital.

Industrialization has made the workplace of the farm or workshop obsolete but I believe the principle could be maintained if workplaces were employee owned and managed democratically rather than authoritatively.

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