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If I can't see your work - you're crap

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Re: If I can't see your work - you're crap

#21

Post by badman_ting »

This attitude has cost me at least one job offer, but my current situation is good enough that I'm not really interested in doing publicly-visible things just so prospective employers can see it.

What can I say, my code goes into private repos, sorry. You reply, I can't offer you a job if I can't see your commits, sorry. Understandable. But then the matter boils down to whether I want the job more, or you want me as an employee more. How good am I and how good are you? I'm not hurting for job offers, but my guess is that you're hurting for developers. Seeing as how you're hiring and all.

I agree with the OP that people in our field often bank on the GitHub account and the Macbook as indicators of "developer-ness". The homogeneity of it grosses me out a little, even though I like GitHub and use many Apple products. It's a groupthink thing that I personally try to avoid, but I wouldn't rail against it.

Re: If I can't see your work - you're crap

#22

Post by NateDad »

opcenter wrote: post #10

I fall into the "developer 1" category myself. I only recently started doing side projects in my own time (and publishing them on github), almost entirely because I was starting to run into walls job searching without a "portfolio." Unfortunately, this means that what potential employers are seeing is stuff that I've done in my almost non-existent free time, so it's generally unfinished, unpolished projects that had…

I had the same problem. Here's my suggestion, which worked out pretty well for me: pick a small, well-defined project, and code the hell out of it. It doesn't have to do a lot, it just has to be an example of your best work. Try re-implementing something that's already been done in another language, or in other settings. Then, when you give someone your github account, tell them "The rest of this stuff is me messing around because I love to code, but this project right here... that's how I code when I mean business". They'll understand, and they'll be impressed.

Not everyone can spend 40 hours a week on side projects. Most people hiring should understand that. If they don't, you probably don't want to work there anyway.

Re: If I can't see your work - you're crap

#23

Post by varelse »

Developer 1 is just fine with sufficient networking/publishing.

I don't have a single commit on github. But I have no problem with job offers. I suspect that's because I have author credits on a lot of refereed publications in the past few years and a bunch of recent patents, mostly single inventor. I'd say that's worth more than a bunch of code on github myself, but to each their own.

Re: If I can't see your work - you're crap

#24

Post by ultimoo »

>> ...maybe they're paid less or maybe they're female...

I never used to think being female was as big a problem as people said it was until I observed it happen twice last week to a female friend really close to me. I've always been for gender equality in the work place but now I'm even more so.

Re: If I can't see your work - you're crap

#25

Post by maratd »

jdietrich wrote: post #16

OP has missed the point spectacularly. There aren't just two developers in the world, there are hundreds. For those with published commits, I can assess quality of their code myself and see whether they actually know what they're doing within a couple of minutes. A developer with only a CV is a pig in a poke. They might be a terrific developer, they might just be very good at bullshitting their way up the career ladd…

> I have no way of distinguishing a genuinely talented developer from a bullshitter.

Nonsense. Put him in front of a computer and ask him to write something. Then evaluate him based on that.

I have written hundreds of thousands of lines of code, but only have a few thousand up on Github and quite frankly, most of that is not my best work. Most of the code I write is proprietary.

> Why should I spend half a day or more interviewing a candidate who can present no real evidence that they can actually code, when I can have my pick of people whose Github profiles are overflowing with quality commits?

Pretty simple. Those with overflowing commits on Github either have a very skewed work/life balance or quite simply, have no actual work experience. Open source only pays the bills in very rare circumstances.

Re: If I can't see your work - you're crap

#26

Post by doublerebel »

unoti wrote: post #7

I use private repos on Bitbucket. Most of what I've worked on over the last 5 to 10 years my competitors would absolutely love to get their hands on. Much as I'd love the street cred, I can't publish my code. If the software is an important part of what gives me an advantage over my competitors, then I can't publish the code. If it's written for a client, I can't publish the code. Really, there's only a very narrow s…

My competitors also love my software. By giving them (at least part of) the source they solve bugs and add features for free. A good developer generally has far more than one good idea or library up their sleeve.

I begin work with clients with the explicit understanding that I am using public code that may be improved during the course of their project. I sell them on the benefit that they effectively get the project foundation for free, thanks to using this process with previous clients. Open code is better tested and guarantees that their business and codebase is sustainable towards the future, if something happens to me or our relationship otherwise ends. This security is invaluable to a client.

Closed-source, private code is a much harder sell even with a long list of happy clients. What guarantee can be given that the software will be sustainable going forward?

Re: If I can't see your work - you're crap

#27

Post by derleth »

badman_ting wrote: post #21

This attitude has cost me at least one job offer, but my current situation is good enough that I'm not really interested in doing publicly-visible things just so prospective employers can see it. What can I say, my code goes into private repos, sorry. You reply, I can't offer you a job if I can't see your commits, sorry. Understandable. But then the matter boils down to whether I want the job more, or you want me as…

> It's a groupthink thing that I personally try to avoid

Because the Good Ol' Boy network of references and handshakes is a groupthink thing you've gamed better.

Re: If I can't see your work - you're crap

#28

Post by speeder »

Anyone know how a developer in situation 1 can get a job?

I am a game developer, and many game companies have two qualities:

1, they demand lots of time.

2, they do either very specific work related only to their game, or they do things that can be re-used, but then this mean it become very valuable internal tech and must NOT be shared with competitors.

Currently my lifestyle is: wake up, drink tea, wear something, go to work.

Arrive home, take a bath, eat something, sleep.

In saturday it is: wake up, clean house, wash clothes, do all other home chores, leave to see SO.

Sunday: return home with SO, cook a food for the whole week with her help until it is night (I have only 1 cooking pot, meaning each dish must be done sequentially, instead of parallel, also the kitchen is shit, IF I had several pots, I still would be unable to use them), eat something, send SO away, sleep.

I worry that if my current startup fail, I will spend another long time unemployed, and since I have college debts that currently cost 2 times a minimum wage here, this is something that I CANNOT afford (it is already 3 years that my bank account is either zero, or negative at the end of the month).

Sometimes I do some check, prodding here and there to see if I can find work, and I am not even invited to interviews, except by jobs with pay lower than my university debt (ie: the pay is 1.5* the minimum wage, or lower... those always want me working for them as developer, by the way, the minimum wage here is about 300 USD month).

Re: If I can't see your work - you're crap

#29

Post by pothibo »

Blogging and open source is about giving back. And there's value in that.

You open yourself to criticism from peers. Working in a Fortune 500 company doesn't tell me much about your coding skills, but it tells me a lot about your political skills (Not meant as a criticism).

Re: If I can't see your work - you're crap

#30

Post by adeaver »

jdietrich wrote: post #16

OP has missed the point spectacularly. There aren't just two developers in the world, there are hundreds. For those with published commits, I can assess quality of their code myself and see whether they actually know what they're doing within a couple of minutes. A developer with only a CV is a pig in a poke. They might be a terrific developer, they might just be very good at bullshitting their way up the career ladd…

Because you are cutting off part of your potential candidate pool and increasing the chance of choosing someone who has no practical experience other than working on OSS projects.

If you can't distinguish the difference between a talented dev and someone who has managed to BS their way into a job I submit that the problem might not be with the developers you are looking at.

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