Live data from Hacker News

Why Some Startups Say the Cloud Is a Waste of Money

wired.com

31–40 of 58 posts

Re: Why Some Startups Say the Cloud Is a Waste of Money

#31
http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/wp-content/uploads/2013...

I guess "casual dress code" at startups these days means exposed feet on the table, right where your co-workers can see (and perhaps smell) them.

And why does he have a roll of toilet paper under his monitor?

Re: Why Some Startups Say the Cloud Is a Waste of Money

#32
post #6

Basically the Cloud is a stepping stone on your way to greater things. You may outgrow the cloud or you may find you have economies of scale where the cloud is becomes the expensive option. Recognise it and change your set up. TBH you should be doing this with all aspects of the business. Start in a room/garage, move to serviced offices, then rent your own building, then buy your own building (should it become financ…

It's a stepping stone for some companies. For many others, it's not (e.g. Netflix, Heroku). I see a false dichotomy here: start off with the cloud, then move to bare metal servers. If you've got an OLTP database that demands high-performance, you may need bare metal. Many companies don't, though. I've been a consultant to companies who've over-extended themselves on EC2 and ended up with huge monthly bills they didn'…

Netflix is fundamentally a different business than most. Their whole business model is a tenant relationship - they control nothing. Demand for their services can only be met by licensing deals, which also happen to generate demand for their service. All components of their business (IT infrastructure, network transit, end-user networks) are owned by competitors.

Content owners can and do screw Netflix with hardball negotiation tactics. Unlike cable companies, Netflix doesn't have a utility billing regime or local monopoly on services. So at any time, the need for large swaths of their IT infrastructure can disappear.

So what do you do? Put lots of liabilities on your books (datacenters, computers, SANs, etc)? Or rent it from someone?

Re: Why Some Startups Say the Cloud Is a Waste of Money

#33

>> That’s $324,000 a year. But for just $120,000, the company could buy all the physical servers it needed for the job What about power, cooling, rent in the building for the room you're keeping them in, backup generator, internet connectivity, administration costs (setup, repairs, installation), etc? >> “The public cloud is phenomenal if you really need its elasticity,” Frenkiel says. “But if you don’t — if you do a…

$120,000 worth of servers is maybe 2-3 cabinets. $1100/mo /w 40A @120V each in most major markets, so let's just say $3,300/mo. Add in a 1Gb commit on a 10Gb link of quality bandwidth for another $2,000/mo, and all-in-all you're looking at $5,300/mo or $63,600/yr in operating expenses. Considering the hardware will probably last you 3 years, the hardware cost is actually only $40,000/yr, for a total of $103,600 vs $324,000. You'd easily be cutting your costs by 2/3rds.

Re: Why Some Startups Say the Cloud Is a Waste of Money

#34
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how many extra 'DevOps' people has the company now had to employ to manage these physical servers, and what is their annual salary? This never seems to be factored into the calculations.

That was my first thought, too. Physical hardware == more staff. Also consider the risk management of keeping your security up to date, and the opportunity costs of making it easy to use for developers. Spend some time in old-school enterprise, and you'll see just how much pain and grief can happen. Remember, Amazon built its cloud not for the public, but for itself! The cloud gave them a clean separation of duties a…

With modern tools like Fully Automatic Install and Ansible/Puppet it shouldn't be any more than for a Cloud service.

Re: Why Some Startups Say the Cloud Is a Waste of Money

#35

>> That’s $324,000 a year. But for just $120,000, the company could buy all the physical servers it needed for the job What about power, cooling, rent in the building for the room you're keeping them in, backup generator, internet connectivity, administration costs (setup, repairs, installation), etc? >> “The public cloud is phenomenal if you really need its elasticity,” Frenkiel says. “But if you don’t — if you do a…

And how many extra 'DevOps' people has the company now had to employ to manage these physical servers, and what is their annual salary? This never seems to be factored into the calculations.

This this this. And what is the turnaround time on getting new servers provisioned for development? Are they using Docker, or are they stuck in Windows land where there's no open source private PaaS solution that makes any sense? How many of those servers have virtual machines provisioned and then those virtual machines sit idle? How long until the cruft virtual machines are so populous that they take up an ever increasing amount of your internal infrastucture and it's a nightmare to manage?

Re: Why Some Startups Say the Cloud Is a Waste of Money

#36
AWS abstracts IT infrastructure and as programmers , we have to love it for that. A server becomes an object that you can play with instead of a scary Linux baremetal box; you don't worry about configuring NGINX as a Loadbalancer or setting up IPTables. YOu don't worry about configuring SAS drives and H/W RAID cards -- which is hairy scary stuff. With Cloud, you can be up and running with an IT insfrastructure with having a specialized/dedicated admin. edit- typos

Re: Why Some Startups Say the Cloud Is a Waste of Money

#37
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was my first thought, too. Physical hardware == more staff. Also consider the risk management of keeping your security up to date, and the opportunity costs of making it easy to use for developers. Spend some time in old-school enterprise, and you'll see just how much pain and grief can happen. Remember, Amazon built its cloud not for the public, but for itself! The cloud gave them a clean separation of duties a…

With modern tools like Fully Automatic Install and Ansible/Puppet it shouldn't be any more than for a Cloud service.

But once you have a legacy system, getting the modern tools in there can be a real pain.

Instant snowflake, just add expensive and archaic enterprise middleware.

Re: Why Some Startups Say the Cloud Is a Waste of Money

#38
The right tool for the right workload...

If you only need five servers on the net, VPS' make sense (cheap, easy to spin new ones, etc...).

If you need 10, physicals (aka dedicated), might make sense. They're cheaper per Ghz, but take longer and need more skills to bring online.

Nees more? Colo might make sense.

Also, as you expand to physicals and colo, using some of the other options for specific needs might make sense.

Re: Why Some Startups Say the Cloud Is a Waste of Money

#39

http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/wp-content/uploads/2013... I guess "casual dress code" at startups these days means exposed feet on the table, right where your co-workers can see (and perhaps smell) them. And why does he have a roll of toilet paper under his monitor?

> And why does he have a roll of toilet paper under his monitor?

For use as facial tissues.

Re: Why Some Startups Say the Cloud Is a Waste of Money

#40

http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/wp-content/uploads/2013... I guess "casual dress code" at startups these days means exposed feet on the table, right where your co-workers can see (and perhaps smell) them. And why does he have a roll of toilet paper under his monitor?

> And why does he have a roll of toilet paper under his monitor?

To deal with crappy code?

Post reply on HN