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How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane

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Re: How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane

#211
post #60
post #5

Why are we still building manned fighter planes?

Read about the early years of the F-4 and its gun pod. The wikipedia article is fairly good, although short. Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it. The F-4 lesson was "everyone knew" that ever more expensive and technologically advanced munitions were the way to go, so no gun pod just drop missiles. (missiles are essentially somewhat dumb short range drones, although there's a lot of overlap in the ca…

People actually died...

Presumably most of these were F-4 pilots? I thought one of the most salient points of a drone is that it doesn't have a pilot?

Re: How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane

#212
If the VSTOL capabilities are only required to launch the aircraft in a really narrow set of circumstances (ie. from a ship with a helipad rather than a landing strip) why don't they have a detachable booster model? I'm imagining something that sits on top of the aircraft and provides the vertical thrust during take-off then detaches as the plane blasts off horizontally, leaving the booster free to lower itself onto the next plane for take-off and so on until the fleet has been dispatched and it can land itself on the platform. Instead of the capability to land, all you'd need is to build the planes so they could be ditched in the sea close by and this thing could go pick them up.

In other words just have a detachable VSTOL module instead of having to integrate it into the plane.

Re: How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane

#213
I wonder whether the article is applying a lot of thought to an issue that won't really matter very much in a decade or so.

Fighters, as a delivery/sensor platform need to be manoeuvrable to not get hit. It's economics - people are expensive to train, sensors are expensive, and so you need an expensive system that you can reuse to ensure a good ROI.

Couple this with the increasing effectiveness of ground based missile defences and it's questionable whether you can plausibly hope to penetrate an airspace defended with a next generation, automated, system anyway. Whether investing that sort of money in the aircraft is going to give you something survivable. I don't believe it's ever been tried against a current gen system, and I'm aware that operating in areas with previous-generation air-defence systems has been incredibly risky already.

However. -chews her lip- If you don't have a lot of money sunk into your delivery platform - and if your sensors are out of harms way - then the survivability of the remaining components of the system, the bit that just has to get your missile, or whatever, into the area becomes a non-issue.

To an extent the original cruise missiles were the answer to just that question with respect to the Soviet Union: How do you penetrate a well defended airspace without losing an unacceptably high investment?

Consequently, I wonder whether air dominance, in the mid to long term, is going to be increasingly determined by the quality of your missiles. By extremely long range missile systems interacting with very powerful, networked, sensors (that might be, for example, based on drones far beyond the active area.)

Under that sort of interpretation, you won't have a fighter. At its logical extreme, you'll have a cruise missile that can go to the operational area in a reasonable timeframe and has a very fast second or third stage to do the final closing with the target. You can make your cruise missile go faster than any fighter could, because the airframe is a throw away, and because you don't have to hold any fuel back to get back to base, and because it will be vastly lighter, and because you don't have to worry about any squishy human riding in it.

That seems, to me, like the logical extension of the see first shoot first doctrine that the F-22 and 35 were based upon, the logical extension of drones as a low-cost delivery method, and the logical extension of the need to penetrate increasingly well defended airspaces.

If that is how things go, the quality of the aircraft you have becomes largely irrelevant. They'd never get close enough to the action to need great performance.

Re: How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to being a crappy fighter the F-35 is also a crappy bomber and close air support aircraft. Not that it's a surprise that a plane designated fighter (or 'strike' or 'fighter/attack') isn't good at these things. We've virtually abandoned A and B line planes because the testosterone blinded fighter mafia in the airforce would rather have fun toys than useful equipment, and the navy is right there with them b…

There is money going toward the development of a replacement for the B-52, although the exact form it will take is still up in the air/under wraps. Suffice to say that the "Next Generation Bomber" project currently has funding. Two observations along these lines, however: * The B-52 originally was the US Air Force's all-purpose bomber when it rolled out in the 50s. It was a conventional heavy bomber, a strategic nucl…

My understanding is that a major role of the B-52 these days is tactical support. It can carry a very large number of small, laser-guided bombs; can loiter over a battlefield for about a day and flies high enough that it can't be harmed by shoulder-fired weaponry.

Conceptually it fills the role of a very large drone.

Re: How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane

#215
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States economy is based upon Military Keynesianism. The federal government does not analyze spending the same way we do because __spending benefits the economy__, which is part of the government's responsibility. They intentionally spend money to stimulate the economy. So when the military spends $1 trillion on planes, they are really trading $1 trillion for planes plus economic stimulus. In other words, t…

So, if spending unilaterally stimulates the economy, then why stop at $1 trillion? Why not just spend quadrillions of dollars and really stimulate the economy? The answer is that the there is a very real opportunity cost to their spending. That trillion dollars could have been spend on other infrastructure, or education, or even a more efficient warplane, and all of those expenditures would have resulted in greater v…

Indeed there is a very real opportunity cost to having the government redistribute that trillion regardless.

/libertarian

Re: How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"easily destroyed by much cheaper drones" To a certain extent, this has been true for more than two decades. I used to work as a radar engineer for the RAAF, and every time we went on exercises against US forces (both teams flying F 18s, but with different missile payloads, we had AIM9s, the Americans had AMRAAM), we would see our aircraft swatted from the sky before we could even get the bogeys on weapons-system rad…

How are AWACS defended? Are they too far away for the enemy to engage? Is it possible to stealth a plane that constantly broadcasts radar? Do they have other means of missile/drone defense? I hope that "assume AWACS doesn't get attacked" is not the first assumption in all these war game exercises.

The point being that the radar range of an AWACS vastly exceeds the range of any air-to-air missile in production or under design.

So when you see hostile planes driving towards you, you send some fighters to go and shoot them down.

Meanwhile the AWACS can be supporting air, sea and ground battles happening for hundreds of kilometres in every direction. They really are powerful tools.

Re: How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drones are great, but not failproof. what happens when you command links are taken down? (RF jamming, satellites destroyed, etc) You're gonna need a "human powered" "analog" fallback.

I imagine it's not a novel idea, but taking something along the lines of an airliner/AWACS platform and stuffing it full of drone pilots in cubicles and using line-of-sight optical or tightbeam microwave comms direct to your drone herd[1] a few hundred km away would be pretty hard to block. Tightbeam comms also make it a lot harder to find than a radar emitting AWACS, and you can have multiple redundant controllers f…

> Even even further down the line, distribute the human controllers into the defensive swarm, so they're hard/impossible to distinguish from the "dumb" drones, and less of a Single Big Target worth hitting.

You'd look for the larger drones that never pull turns over 8.5g.

Re: How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane

#218
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turkey bought 30 Block 50s at $2.9B, which is a hair under $100M, but I was really referring more to the UAE Block 60. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/turkey-orders-30-f16c-bl...

This is the key line (key bits in italics): >On Sept 28/06, the US DSCA (Defense Security Cooperation Agency) notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Turkey of 30 more F-16C Block 50 aircraft external link, as well as associated equipment and services . The total value, if all options are exercised , could be as high as $2.9 billion. Thus, the money includes any of spares, ground equipment, special t…

Yeah, this came up a lot when I tried to search for past deals. That's why finding a real figure for the price of the plane seems really difficult, even for a plane as widespread as the F-16.

Re: How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane

#219
post #212

If the VSTOL capabilities are only required to launch the aircraft in a really narrow set of circumstances (ie. from a ship with a helipad rather than a landing strip) why don't they have a detachable booster model? I'm imagining something that sits on top of the aircraft and provides the vertical thrust during take-off then detaches as the plane blasts off horizontally, leaving the booster free to lower itself onto…

That's not a detachable VSTOL module, its a detachable vertical/short take off module plus a much more expensive and complicated airframe designed to be regularly handle water landings without complications.

Of course, even if "ditch it in a convenient large body of water" was a suitable substitute for vertical/short landing capability for carrier-based aviation, it wouldn't provide the same benefits for, e.g., improvised land-based airfields.

So, this would be less capable -- and probably more expensive -- than just building a VSTOL aircraft to start with.

Re: How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane

#220
It's my opinion that the JSF will be quickly replaced - hopefully domestically, but definitely globally - by air superiority drones and bombing drones. The very rapid pace of development and much lower cost guarantees that outcome. It'll happen in the next decade. If the US doesn't invest in order to lead that charge, we'll be embarrassed by other countries that will. Even if there's an argument to be made in favor of pilots in planes, countries will rapidly turn to drone technology because it's cheaper.

It appears likely to take another decade to get the JSF program where it should already be. By that time it'll be a trivial matter to swarm these planes out of the sky with drones that cost 5% to 10% as much per plane. Even a limited country such as Iran is going to be able to take down the F-35 by throwing multiple drones at it.

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