Good to know that _none_ of the technical people or authors of the software are important as far as NY is concerned! :P
Every important person in BitCoin just got subpoenaed by NY financial regulators
111–120 of 194 posts
Re: Every important person in BitCoin just got subpoenaed by NY financial regulators
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
In a way, bitcoin itself is not really a currency, or money, it's more like an idea for exchanging messages. Bitcoin is really a decentralized messaging system which relies on cryptography and proof-of-work to maintain integrity. Should exchanging messages in the form of "I owe you x amount" over a p2p network be regulated or be made illegal? However, The fact that it's used as a form of currency is just an interpret…
> In a way, bitcoin itself is not really a currency, or money, it's more like an idea for exchanging messages. It's a way to convey messages, but the messages represent value in the same way that paper money does. If bitcoins can be exchanged for goods and services, then they represent the value of those goods and services, just like paper money. An electronic message describing a transaction involving dollars, or eu…
Your argument assumes that individual bitcoins exist...
Bitcoin ties a number to a script. By providing a cryptographic key for that script you can add that number with some other numbers from other scripts and then divide that value into new scripts (throwing away the extra). Bitcoin programs often generate new keys for just about every transaction (so it's hard to link them together).
These scripts are transactions in waiting. They can't complete until someone provides the key that decrypts them, and then puts them in another transaction. Bitcoin is deniable, no one can prove you have the key to some scripts (since you can generate the keys from something in your memory, as opposed to using the easier to use encrypted wallets), and if they tried to, it would be equivalent to a thought crime.
Now, as a legit business, you would be required to collect tax for your services (for sales tax), but you already have to do that, which is how it should be.
Re: Every important person in BitCoin just got subpoenaed by NY financial regulators
#113Unpopular opinion of the day: bitcoin is real money, and the government will regulate it and control it as such. In my opinion, the end-game is this: bitcoin addresses are taxable, with occasional tax agents spot-checking large accumulations of bitcoin to determine if said addresses fall within their jurisdiction. Bitcoin has the unusual ability to have a very tight trace on where a given virtual coin goes: that just…
Real money is a government IOU that can be redeemed to fulfill your tax obligation. Bitcoin fulfills neither of these. It's simply a receipt for wasted electricity.
Re: Every important person in BitCoin just got subpoenaed by NY financial regulators
#114Coincidentally today:
Crypto-currency for NSA leaker: Snowden fund accepts Bitcoin
Published time: August 12, 2013 14:51
US fugitive Edward Snowden’s defense fund, launched recently by WikiLeaks to raise money for the legal protection of the NSA leaker, has announced it now accepts donations in virtual currency Bitcoin.
Re: Every important person in BitCoin just got subpoenaed by NY financial regulators
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
A bitcoin address is just a container for some amount of BTC. Holding an amount of currency isn't taxable, and exchanging currency often isn't taxable either. (I'm generalizing across jurisdictions, but I think what I'm saying is true for most of them.) If you move money from one pocket to another, or one savings account to another (that you own), that's not taxable. Very many transfers between bitcoin addresses is j…
Great explanation. Ignore my ignorance in crypto stuff, so, what's stopping us from creating a hundred accounts in one computer and having a couple of bitcoins in each one of them? Or even spread in one hundred shared peer-to-peer bank services?
This is exactly what the standard bitcoin client does - it creates 100 addresses when installed.
Re: Every important person in BitCoin just got subpoenaed by NY financial regulators
#116This is just the tip of the iceberg. Of course the government cares about money, and of course it wants to control the money supply. And, as a consequence, the USA will never allow any major currency inside its borders other than the US dollar. The history of the United States is littered with the fights over who gets to determine what is money and how much of it there is: Hamilton's fight with Jefferson and Madison…
> Why would any successful government ever voluntarily give up that control?
They really can't give it up. It's the foundation of government: the ability to issue debt and place an obligation on citizens to offer their goods and services to acquire that debt to fulfill that obligation. Unless the U.S. decides to adopt debt note convertibility to bitcoins, there's really no way for bitcoins to supplant the dollar.
Re: Every important person in BitCoin just got subpoenaed by NY financial regulators
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think in the short term at least, this is beneficial for Bitcoin, if it's recognized as money, and businesses and "normal" people start trusting to use it without fearing repercussions from the government, as long as they "follow the rules". This could lead to more centralized exchanges, which again is good in the short term - the more the merrier, so people can easily get Bitcoin with their dollars. But I think th…
Local wallets is not a really accurate term - all BTC transactions go in the public ledger. It's kinda one of the flaws of bitcoin, there's no such thing as an offline transaction.
I think the go is trying to distinguish between wallets associated with a known identity through exchanges/services and ones that are not.
Re: Every important person in BitCoin just got subpoenaed by NY financial regulators
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
In Canada, even if you destroy all paperwork and tell the taxman that you don't remember anything, the law permits them to look at your assets and decide how much you owe. Then it's your burden to prove otherwise. Is it different in the US? Hell they could even force exchanges or code mainteners to build in a tax system.
Nobody can force opensource code maintainers to build anything. More importantly, nobody can force all exchanges to run any particular code; exchanges can exist in any political jurisdiction.
Whilst way you say may technically be true, the government could just declare this:
Each person must publicly declare the bitcoin addresses that they hold. Any legitimate business accepting payment in bitcoins can only receive bitcoins from other registered addresses, else they are black flagged and no longer a registered address.
Now, your average business and the banks are not going to circumvent these rules. The Banks will probably give their business customers payment gateways that enforce these rules without the business having any choice. Black market bitcoins will still exist, they will just be useless as "normal" currency and will be completely separate, with no way to cross over. Since all transactions are public it is trivial for the government to enforce these rules.
You'll still be able to run your exchange in some other political jurisdiction, but unless the Government white lists your addresses, nobody will be able to spend those coins on legitimate businesses in your country.
Re: Every important person in BitCoin just got subpoenaed by NY financial regulators
#119Unpopular opinion of the day: bitcoin is real money, and the government will regulate it and control it as such. In my opinion, the end-game is this: bitcoin addresses are taxable, with occasional tax agents spot-checking large accumulations of bitcoin to determine if said addresses fall within their jurisdiction. Bitcoin has the unusual ability to have a very tight trace on where a given virtual coin goes: that just…
A bitcoin address is just a container for some amount of BTC. Holding an amount of currency isn't taxable, and exchanging currency often isn't taxable either. (I'm generalizing across jurisdictions, but I think what I'm saying is true for most of them.) If you move money from one pocket to another, or one savings account to another (that you own), that's not taxable. Very many transfers between bitcoin addresses is j…
(For Americans) If you earn income in bitcoins, you still have to pay tax in USD. If you earn income in Euros, you still have to pay tax in USD. Bitcoin does not absolve you of your tax obligations, even thought it might help you to evade them.
Re: Every important person in BitCoin just got subpoenaed by NY financial regulators
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is why I don't believe in BTC for the long term. It's not anywhere near anonymous. Those saying BTC has no inherent value (as opposed to gold, for example) are completely overlooking the fact that BTC is the only kind of exchange that can be used for illicit activities in a relatively untraceable manner (good luck buying stuff on SR using gold). Unfortunately, BTC is traceable if governments decide to spend the…
If the government steps in to "de-anonymize" bitcoin, then people will simply begin using tumbling services. People don't use those services right now because there's no impetus to. But as soon as the trust inherent to the public ledger is violated by creating a large-scale effort to track the flow of bitcoin, then people will counter that action with tumblers.
See my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6204187.
It's pretty straightforward for the Government to come up with a scheme to defeat tumbling services. Just make it mandatory to only accept payments from whitelisted addresses. Banks and your average business are not going to go all cypherpunk and circumvent such laws.