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BlackBerry puts itself up for sale

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Re: BlackBerry puts itself up for sale

#101

Post by foobarqux »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #92
foobarqux wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the market cap of a lemonade stand with 3bn cash?

Err, ok I am missing something from my basic economics - I was pretty certain the market cap of a company was its projected lifetime profits. So if a lemonade stand has 3bn in cash it's done pretty well selling lemonade surely?

> Err, ok I am missing something from my basic economics - I was pretty certain the market cap of a company was its projected lifetime profits.

No, it is what the shareholder can, in principle, "take out" of the company, appropriately discounted. For a going concern, without excess cash, that is going to be, to a first approximation, something like discounted earnings.

> So if a lemonade stand has 3bn in cash it's done pretty well selling lemonade surely?

Not necessarily. When starting a business you need cash, even pre-revenue. Even if the cash were generated entirely from the business somehow the business endeavor may no longer be valuable. Maybe people don't like lemonade anymore. Maybe lemons have gone extinct. In those cases future earnings are zero.

If someone wanted to acquire the lemonade business what would they pay? Probably not $3bn because that would just be moving numbers around (there is no reason normally to buy cash). They would pay whatever they could get out of the lemonade business proper (assets, future earnings). The $3bn would be returned to the shareholders.

Re: BlackBerry puts itself up for sale

#102

Post by dredmorbius »

jfb wrote: post #75
dannomatic wrote: post #59

Amazon and Blackberry are the ideal fit. Amazon needs to gain independence from Android, they have the marketplace and the muscle to take advantage of all things Blackberry has in it's favour. Remember they have already been in discussions in the past: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2077067/Amazo... Neither MSFT nor Samsung really make sense as purchasers IMHO.

The hardware business is dead and dusted. Amazon needs a platform to sell you things, not a difficult hardware business. Blackberry's only useful assets are their enterprise software and sales teams; everything else is noise.

And patent portfolio.

Depending on where Amazon wants to take Kindle, that could be useful.

Re: BlackBerry puts itself up for sale

#103

Post by lifeisstillgood »

foobarqux wrote: post #101
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, ok I am missing something from my basic economics - I was pretty certain the market cap of a company was its projected lifetime profits. So if a lemonade stand has 3bn in cash it's done pretty well selling lemonade surely?

> Err, ok I am missing something from my basic economics - I was pretty certain the market cap of a company was its projected lifetime profits. No, it is what the shareholder can, in principle, "take out" of the company, appropriately discounted. For a going concern, without excess cash, that is going to be, to a first approximation, something like discounted earnings. > So if a lemonade stand has 3bn in cash it's do…

I've just reread my comment - I was talking rubbish. Sorry

Re: BlackBerry puts itself up for sale

#104

Post by jfb »

dredmorbius wrote: post #102
jfb wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hardware business is dead and dusted. Amazon needs a platform to sell you things, not a difficult hardware business. Blackberry's only useful assets are their enterprise software and sales teams; everything else is noise.

And patent portfolio. Depending on where Amazon wants to take Kindle, that could be useful.

True. And it's not like Amazon doesn't have the money to splash around.

Re: BlackBerry puts itself up for sale

#105

Post by grannyg00se »

HorizonXP wrote: post #95
grannyg00se wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BB10 may be nice but the damn thing still lacks apps. There's no point having a great phone and great OS with no app coverage. At least three times now in the past month someone has recommended an app to me an sure enough...no blackberry option. Android and iOS only. What I don't understand is why they don't force popular apps onto their platform. Even if no companies are jumping to develop for Blackberry, pay them t…

They have tried to pay companies for apps, and they have in the past. It isn't enough. My company is an example, as are others.

You mean they try to pay companies to develop apps for their platform and the companies refuse? Why would that be? Can you provide details about what happened with your company?

Re: BlackBerry puts itself up for sale

#106

Post by HorizonXP »

grannyg00se wrote: post #105
HorizonXP wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have tried to pay companies for apps, and they have in the past. It isn't enough. My company is an example, as are others.

You mean they try to pay companies to develop apps for their platform and the companies refuse? Why would that be? Can you provide details about what happened with your company?

That's precisely what happens, and ultimately it's because there are other interests at play. I cannot divulge any more information.

Re: BlackBerry puts itself up for sale

#107

Post by sirkneeland »

grannyg00se wrote: post #89
HorizonXP wrote: post #67

As an Android developer by day, and a BlackBerry developer by night, it boggles my mind why everyone thinks BB10 is crap, and that no one wants it. Spend 1 week with a BlackBerry Z10 or Q10, and you'll see how great it actually is in comparison to other platforms. Spend some time developing an app for it in Qt and Cascades, and you'll see how great it is to develop for, in comparison to other platforms. People also n…

BB10 may be nice but the damn thing still lacks apps. There's no point having a great phone and great OS with no app coverage. At least three times now in the past month someone has recommended an app to me an sure enough...no blackberry option. Android and iOS only. What I don't understand is why they don't force popular apps onto their platform. Even if no companies are jumping to develop for Blackberry, pay them t…

If it were possible to force an app into being with money and willpower, Instagram would be on Windows Phone.

Re: BlackBerry puts itself up for sale

#108

Post by sirkneeland »

grannyg00se wrote: post #105
HorizonXP wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have tried to pay companies for apps, and they have in the past. It isn't enough. My company is an example, as are others.

You mean they try to pay companies to develop apps for their platform and the companies refuse? Why would that be? Can you provide details about what happened with your company?

I don't know the exact situations behind HorizonXP's company and their refusal, but having worked in devrel on two minority platforms, I can share with you some common reasons:

-[small companies] even if you bought them a developer, it would impede their ability to be agile and pivot and iterate as they try to find something that works. It's hard enough to get them to support Android in addition to iOS, but getting them to support WP or BB10 is even harder

-[big companies] don't need the money. Or would ask for outrageous fees (some companies have asked for north of $20 million, even for faddish apps)

-[big companies] have an existing solution to do cross-platform development for iOS and Android and it's not worth it to redo it to add WP/BB support

-[small companies] complete lack of familiarity with the Microsoft stack.

-pressure from Apple or Google (usually Apple). I've had cases where a company gets favorable placement in the app store or in a commercial, or placement on the demo devices in a retail store and planned Windows ports are put "on ice" because they don't want to jeopardize their relationship with Apple (which of course has reserved the right to be as capricious and arbitrary with its app policies as they like)

-personal dislike. Believe it or not, some companies are run by people who just have a personal dislike of BlackBerry or Microsoft that is so strong that they'd rather spite them than add to their customer base. It's incredibly immature, but nothing we can do about it.

Re: BlackBerry puts itself up for sale

#109

Post by sirkneeland »

guruz wrote: post #90
HorizonXP wrote: post #67

As an Android developer by day, and a BlackBerry developer by night, it boggles my mind why everyone thinks BB10 is crap, and that no one wants it. Spend 1 week with a BlackBerry Z10 or Q10, and you'll see how great it actually is in comparison to other platforms. Spend some time developing an app for it in Qt and Cascades, and you'll see how great it is to develop for, in comparison to other platforms. People also n…

I've ordered a Q10 some days ago and hope I won't regret it. BB10 has an Android compatibility layer, so that might bring over some apps that might be still lacking.

the problem is that to encourage native app development, they've made it needlessly difficult to get those Android apps over. Either they have to convince the developer to convert the .apk to a BB10 .bar file and submit to BlackBerry World, or the use has to find an .apk (a legal gray area and logistical hassle) and sideload it to the device through a process that involves no official BlackBerry tools.

Re: BlackBerry puts itself up for sale

#110

Post by sirkneeland »

jfb wrote: post #23
CaveTech wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is Blackberry is a hardware manufacturer, so they'd need a huge volume of sales in software to make up what they would lose in hardware. That said, BB10 doesn't really offer anything compelling above Android for manufactures, and additional hardware isn't going to massively change their market share. BB customers have never been driven by cutting edge phones. Their application marketplace is so bad that t…

The reason their customers buy them has nothing to do with the hardware and everything to do with BBM. The only way out for them is as a service provider on alternate (Android, Windows, iOS) platforms. Going private may enable them to continue to do this; any purchaser that makes sense (Microsoft) would be buying their customer list and the BBM brand. Dell buying them would be a Palm goes to HP level farce.

As a victim of the HP/Palm fiasco, I would give Dell the benefit of the doubt only because it is hard to imagine that they could match HP in the colossal screwup and destruction of a great product.
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