The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet • Hacker News Board

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#181

Post by diminoten » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 9:46 PM UTC

foobarqux wrote: post #174

diminoten wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NSA doesn't own any drones. It has no ops.

It is not material that the actual kill is done by a different part of the government.

It's of critical importance, actually. One person collects the data, "The man you're looking for is here." and another person decides what to do with that data. "We will kill him." or "We will capture him." or "We will kill him and anyone in the same room or building as him."

The NSA doesn't decide what to do, the other part of the government does. It's of absolutely critical importance to remember that when discussing the extent of what the NSA knows and does.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#182

Post by diminoten » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 9:50 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #178

diminoten wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bruce Schneier fails to recognize the critical role security theater plays in keeping people safe. His arguments amount to, "people would be just as safe without it" but we have no evidence to that argument, as we have no "lab" with which to test the idea. But you didn't do what I asked. Can you show me why you think what you said was relevant to today's global and technological landscape? What does the UK's hundreds…

> as we have no "lab" with which to test the idea. We have the years before 911. We have the various rail systems, which are vaguely similar to airliners. And, really, the onus for providing proof of efficacy is on the people spending the money and adding time to everyone's travel.

The years before 911 are worthless, considering technological developments since then.

And while I agree, the onus is on those spending the money, this isn't your typical experiment. The people spending the money don't get to play with the variables, as the variables include the lives of others. It's a very tough question, how and where scaling back on airport security can work, and the answer isn't simple.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#183

Post by diminoten » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 9:52 PM UTC

APoliteRequest wrote: post #156

diminoten wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wiki.echelon2.org, huh? The US military uses weapons citizens are not allowed to own or create on a regular basis. Is Lockheed Martin or Boeing not on our side because they make fighter jets that only the US government can buy? It's only "us vs. them" in your head. You're why we can't get jack shit done in congress - people like you get time of day from congressmen and women and then when someone like me wants to tal…

"You're why we can't get jack shit done in congress - people like you.." Well you turned rather insulting.

You're uninterested in a dialog, so I'm uninterested in being nice.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#184

Post by eliasmacpherson » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 9:58 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #169

eliasmacpherson wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the information from the article, 40% of the time, this illegally obtained evidence isn't any help. The data you say they are 'taking guidance from' is illegally acquired and used (at least 40% of the time, but maybe as high 100%). That's indefensible. "Current and former federal agents said SOD tips aren't always helpful - one estimated their accuracy at 60 percent. But current and former agents said tips h…

You keep begging the question by calling it "illegally obtained evidence" which ignores the fact that it's not illegal to obtain, just inadmissible. There's a difference, and entirely defensible. You literally said "basically they use evidence obtained illegally to prosecute someone". Whether you went back and changed it later is a different story, but I copy+pasted what you wrote. And if you think this is how fruit…

You are correct, I am begging the question, the DOJ are investigating the question. Maybe they will find the DEA and SOD are acting illegally. Hopefully they will. Those who would defend the use of NSA data for domestic crimes are dangerously close to advocating for a police state.

I may have written that quote and edited out because it was wrong. Sorry about that.

I doubt I am mistaken about the poisoned tree though because a source of evidence that may have exculpatory evidence is being obscured. It may also be acquired illegally but that is obscured too.

Implicit in your reply is an admission that the NSA tips are being used. "people aren't being snatched up off the streets because of the NSA's monitoring programs." Do you still stand by this because now there's evidence presented to you that the IRS and the DEA have access to NSA tips through the SOD?

A statement from the NSA: "If the intelligence community collects information pursuant to a valid foreign intelligence tasking that is recognised as being evidence of a crime, [it] can disseminate that information to law enforcement, as appropriate."

I think your example of NSA tips is rather convoluted, I prefer the NSA's statement above as it's pretty clear and leaves little to the imagination.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#185

Post by diminoten » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 9:59 PM UTC

ledge wrote: post #150

diminoten wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously trying to defend child pornography?

I am defending certain people convicted under child pornography laws, yes. I am also trying to engage in a serious discussion, ideas from which might reduce harm done to children, but you seem to have no interest in that. Either way, you can strike "child pornography viewers" from my original comment and replace it with "prostitutes", "on-line gamblers", or any other person guilty of a moral crime. The point is that…

> and it's very possible a lead from an intelligence agency was instrumental in their arrest.

So you have no clue, do you?

The NSA is on your side when it comes to international threats. If you decide to break the law, and they find out about it, that's a different ball game.

Pro tip: don't break the law.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#186

Post by diminoten » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 10:02 PM UTC

jmcmichael wrote: post #152

diminoten wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because every group you've named has the same overarching goal - to keep people free and safe. Pretending like the intelligence community is some kind of evil monster is a great way to get ignored by the intelligence community, and for good reason.

> Because every group you've named has the same overarching goal - to keep people free and safe. This statement sounds hopelessly naive to me. Sure, those groups say they work to keep people free and save, but their track record with those goals is tragically abysmal. In fact, there is mountainous and credible evidence that their activities are accomplishing the exact opposite of their stated goals (see the history o…

The intelligence community doesn't ignore senators and representatives. That isn't happening except in a political fantasy world where being opposed to the NSA is beneficial.

What's naive is believing that you have enough information to make a decision about whether or not the NSA is effective at what it does, or that you have enough information to determine that US foreign action is why we're being threatened.

You elect representatives because there is no possible way to inform you about everything. This is not a direct democracy for many very good reasons.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#187

Post by lukifer » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 10:03 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #175

lukifer wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever read Sun Tzu? Knowing is way more than half the battle. Autonomy includes a balance of power and ability to defend yourself, and citizens are unable to spy back on the NSA. Even if the power is not being abused today (which I doubt), it hands over the keys completely to the next Stalin (or even just the next Nixon).

Citizens elect representatives who do the "spying back" on the NSA. If the citizenry didn't like what the representatives were doing, they'd elect different ones. There will never be a "next" Stalin. We're past the days when such a person is possible.

> There will never be a "next" Stalin.

I find that somewhat naive, especially when Putin is enjoying wide popularity. (Not because he has anything resembling Stalin's track record of evil, but rather to demonstrate that many in the public still desire a powerful unitary executive.) There is an instinct in the human animal that craves charismatic, authoritarian power when times are tough.

But even if you're correct, I'm honestly more concerned about institutions than individuals. Institutions, whether "public" or "private", have a tendency to converge towards the survival of the institution as their only goal, and in some ways take on a life of their own; replacing any one employee or leader doesn't necessarily change the overall momentum and internal culture. This is my middle-of-the-road estimation of the danger, nestled between the unlikely extremes of "100% selfless heroes guarding us while we sleep" and "shadow government quietly pulling the strings of the world".

In other words, I'm much more nervous about "Brazil" than "1984".

> If the citizenry didn't like what the representatives were doing, they'd elect different ones.

We're working on that.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#188

Post by diminoten » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 10:09 PM UTC

eliasmacpherson wrote: post #184

diminoten wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep begging the question by calling it "illegally obtained evidence" which ignores the fact that it's not illegal to obtain, just inadmissible. There's a difference, and entirely defensible. You literally said "basically they use evidence obtained illegally to prosecute someone". Whether you went back and changed it later is a different story, but I copy+pasted what you wrote. And if you think this is how fruit…

You are correct, I am begging the question, the DOJ are investigating the question. Maybe they will find the DEA and SOD are acting illegally. Hopefully they will. Those who would defend the use of NSA data for domestic crimes are dangerously close to advocating for a police state. I may have written that quote and edited out because it was wrong. Sorry about that. I doubt I am mistaken about the poisoned tree though…

You're right when it comes to the investigation. If the DOJ finds that this parallel construction is illegal, then I would accept it as such. My gut says they won't (because of the example I gave), but I accept the possibility that I could be wrong.

I still stand by what I said regarding the lack of "snatchings". If a parallel chain of evidence can be constructed that leads to an arrest, that's not "because of" the NSA's monitoring programs. That's because there is a valid reason to investigate this person. The lynchpin is not the NSA's tip, it's the ability to find evidence against a person that is obtained according to the law. A "snatching" would be attributed to the NSA if the only evidence were to have been obtained through the collection of "information pursuant to a valid foreign intelligence tasking". And that's clearly got no evidence to support it.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#189

Post by diminoten » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 10:12 PM UTC

apalmer wrote: post #162

diminoten wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but arguing that the NSA program has never lead to anyone being 'snatched up off the streets', is WILDLY disconnected from reality. Do you have evidence that indicates US citizens are being 'snatched' from the streets of the US without being arrested, tried, or convicted as per the US criminal justice system? You say it's wildly disconnected from reality and that the NSA's entire purpose is to do precisely this, an…

honestly? I dont understand what you are arguing. Who said anything about no arrests, trials, or convictions? I do not have classified info on what is or isnt done within or outside the justice system based on NSA monitoring. I do know the government has claimed that this system has stopped dozens of terrorist plots. I make the assumption based on my judgement that these terrorists are not given a 'stop it or else we…

You're missing the "US citizen" part of what I said.

> Do you have evidence that indicates US citizens are being 'snatched' from the streets of the US without being arrested, tried, or convicted as per the US criminal justice system?

Is what I asked. Non-US citizens aren't necessarily granted the same rights US citizens are granted.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#190

Post by diminoten » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 10:13 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #123

diminoten wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has organizations which look inward for terrorists - the FBI, DEA, ATF, TSA, local law enforcement, etc. We have our own country fairly well covered, with well-establish legal precedent and rules of engagement. The NSA is an intelligence gathering organization for the parts of the world we don't have covered, and its goal is to collect global intelligence. It doesn't treat anyone adversarially, as it has no "t…

> it has no "troops" with which to engage foreigners. Well, if you ignore that thing where the NSA is an part of the Department of Defense, and that its director is also the commander of a sub-unified command of the US military, sure.

The NSA is not the DoD, so yes, it'd make sense to ignore that fact.