The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet • Hacker News Board

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#71

Post by joyeuse6701 » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 5:37 PM UTC

apalmer wrote: post #35

swombat wrote: post #25

If Google, Apple, Microsoft, Yahoo and Facebook simultaneously came out and published all statistics that the government is not allowing them to publish, and declared that they will continue to publish those as they come in and be entirely transparent about the tracking that the NSA asked of them, would their CEOs all go to jail, doing enormous damage to the stock market? I don't think so. I think the NSA would fold…

Well I hope this is not the case. I am against the NSA monitoring program. I think powerful commercial interests colluding to purposefully break the rule of law is a huge negative. Lets disconnect this behavior from the specific instance's moral outrage: If Exxon, BP, Chevron, Shell simultaneously came out and ignored all EPA restrictions would their CEOs all go to jail, doing enormous damage to the stock market? Thi…

Haha, its an absolutist vs. utilitarian moral argument. It is clear that from the absolutist perspective as you've stated, the outcome has potential for abuse. I assume that the precedence set bothers you, corporations were not intended to be a check against the gov't per se. The state of affairs is probably indicative of a larger issue which the failure of our checks and balances in our government.

Utilitarian morality could be that the net effect of the free market demands for an unwatched internet is the correct moral course of action. But as you may have unwittingly hinted at, it is entirely dependent on how the position of the companies and choice of action relate to the benefit of the society. In this case with the NSA the answer is yes, in your example, no, but that should prove that the idea of corporate collusion and interference with gov't isn't intrinsically morally wrong. Just depends on what the companies stand for.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#72

Post by ledge » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 5:40 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #61

ledge wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well they certainly aren't on my side, and I don't want to be on their side. They aggregate and analyze data used to conduct drone strikes, spy on the world indiscriminately, and assist brutal agencies like the DEA in destroying the lives of millions of innocent Americans. Is it a paranoid delusion if you're a drug dealer to think that the NSA is out to get you? Not anymore. What about a drug user? What about a file-…

You'd argue that a child porn viewer isn't doing anything wrong? Your opinion officially doesn't matter any more. Sorry, I have a 10 yr old sister and I simply can't abide folks who won't even do the research to understand what it means when they say things.

Yes I said that without doing any research on the subject ever.

And yes one opinion of mine invalidates every other opinion I have, how true.

You win, good arguments.

Edit: For a more serious reply, there is evidence that countries that have decriminalized viewing child pornography (not production) have seen decreased rates of child sex abuse.

Also, the definition of child pornography is so broad that we have a lot of people rotting in jail for looking at a naked picture that a 14 year old took of themselves in the mirror. Once in jail, these people become targets for violence and ironically sexual abuse.

The topic is not black and white, and when you try to shut down conversation the way you did, it's not helping anyone, children included.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#73

Post by greatzebu » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 5:41 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #25

If Google, Apple, Microsoft, Yahoo and Facebook simultaneously came out and published all statistics that the government is not allowing them to publish, and declared that they will continue to publish those as they come in and be entirely transparent about the tracking that the NSA asked of them, would their CEOs all go to jail, doing enormous damage to the stock market? I don't think so. I think the NSA would fold…

If you're relying on giant corporations to engage in coordinated civil disobedience on your behalf, you're in a pretty bad place.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#74

Post by Sauer_Kraut » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 5:42 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #50

Sauer_Kraut wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I know it for the same reason I know unicorns and leprechauns don't exist - there is no credible evidence supporting it." Of course there is no credible evidence when evidence is known to be actively suppressed. See: 'Intel Laundering.' Also the US boasts that spying resulted in thwarted attempts. Where are those court cases? More importantly, where are the bodies of those involved? Sure is easy to not have credible…

So you're arguing that there is no evidence because the NSA is so good at what they do, they've successfully hidden all operational evidence from the public for their entire time of existence? Is Snowden the first mistake the NSA has ever made, in your eyes, then?

No, no.

edit: Tried to respond below but have been "submitting too fast" while submitting nothing for far too long to care to wait more.

I am not saying the NSA has flawless execution, you are the one repeating it for whatever reason.

I'm saying the NSA/Administration when pushed had to put out something that showed the spying was 'working.' In response they said multiples of domestic plots were foiled. Given the lack of full disclosure as to what the US's secret laws are secretly doing, we are forced to parse the headlines and the body count of the population for information on what has happened, where people went.

Problem is there is only a handful of incidents revealed to the public. The Boston bombers don't count because even though they fit NSA criteria for observation they apparently had no clue about their actions. The Al-Shabaab money provider was explicitly mentioned, so that is one.

Since we know the US kidnaps and tortures people, then makes every attempt to have the guilty escape[1], we don't require further evidence to ask the questions:

Where are the bodies, living or dead, of the others involved in domestic cases the NSA said they helped foil? The NSA says the program is for terrorists, the US government is known to rendition their victims away to be tortured under claims of them being terrorists. This has been documented enough to appease you.

If the NSA's spying program is not meant to result in the kidnapping and torture of others, what is it for? Bringing people to court?

Again, where are those involved in the domestic incidents cited as being foiled by the NSA?

Not all in court, that is for sure.

[1] http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/07/18/how_a_cia_off...

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#75

Post by drivingmenuts » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 5:44 PM UTC

ge0rg wrote: post #27

S_A_P wrote: post #14

While I understand that Lavabit and others have taken a stand, Im not sure that I would call going out of business fighting. I see this as an NSA victory. If they could shut down all of these niche secure email businesses, what option will people have but to use less private alternatives? I would argue that a shut down is exactly what the NSA wanted from lavabit. Of course the flip side is that you don't want to be c…

If they could shut down all of these niche secure email businesses, what option will people have but to use less private alternatives? I think Ladar Levison answered that question, implicitly, in his shutdown announcement: "I would _strongly_ recommend against anyone trusting their private data to a company with physical ties to the United States." It is high time to provide secure services hosted in countries withou…

Great if you live outside the US, but if you're inside the US, would not the very act of connecting to a foreign secure service automatically make you suspect?

There is a much deeper issue here: as Americans, we need to decide how much protection we actually want. One group says everyone is responsible for their own protection, another says everyone needs protecting from everyone else, yet another group says we'll protect you if you don't look to closely behind the curtain, and so on e pluribus ad-infinitum ...

Nobody has a good solution, yet. Personally, I don't mind the NSA spying on foreigners (that's their job) and if you're not from the US, I feel like you should have known that was a possibility.

What I'd settle for at the moment is more independent oversight by people not intimately connected to the defense industry and less secret courts and judgements that make us look and sound like cartoon banana republic.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#76

Post by Sauer_Kraut » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 5:44 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #30

apalmer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very few movers and shakers in the history of the world are intrinsically 'evil' in their own judgement. Whether Alexander is purposefully trying to harm the US or not is immaterial. Agree with you on the charicterization going on here, its one thing to feel his motivations are a given way, another to imply he has public made statements indicating this to be fact.

I don't much care what Alexander judges himself to be, I'm talking about his actions and motivations for those actions. He's not trying to destroy the US, he's trying to keep it safe. He is possibly misguided or flat out wrong about how to do that, but it's not as if he's actively working to harm US citizens, as many people here would claim.

Why do you keep stating such things as "he's trying to keep it safe" or "NSA is trying to help the citizens of the US."

Do you have information on this or do you keep on stating your opinion as fact?

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#77

Post by pdonis » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 5:48 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #15

pdonis wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the NSA does not have control. How do you know? The Internet backbone was developed using US government funding. How do you know that the US government did not put backdoors there? It did in the case of the long-distance telephone network. We can have our cake (terrorist monitoring) and eat it too (maintain individual privacy) I agree that this could be done in theory; I'm not sure it can be done in practice.

I don't know in the epistemological sense, but there's just no reason to believe such a thing to be true.

there's just no reason to believe such a thing to be true

No reason to believe what to be true? The US government's placing of backdoors in the long-distance telephone network is historical fact. That historical fact is a reason to believe that what the US government has done once, it could do again. It may not be a reason you want to accept, but it's still a reason.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#78

Post by jacquesm » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 5:49 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #55

TallGuyShort wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> We can have our cake (terrorist monitoring) and eat it too (maintain individual privacy) Until the definition of a "terrorist" grows to include people who engage in activities previously considered harmless and private.

So we're ready to convict the government of thought-crimes? Just because they can, doesn't mean they will. Gun owners could all go out and harm innocent people, but they generally don't, do they? At least we don't convict them before they do.

Gun owners typically shouldn't get to decide who is innocent and who is not. They're not judge, jury and executioner.

So whenever they do hurt someone it's a case for an actual judge to figure out what happened and if we class it as self defence or not.

Gun owners harm innocent people more often than not.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#79

Post by dmix » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 5:50 PM UTC

apalmer wrote: post #35

swombat wrote: post #25

If Google, Apple, Microsoft, Yahoo and Facebook simultaneously came out and published all statistics that the government is not allowing them to publish, and declared that they will continue to publish those as they come in and be entirely transparent about the tracking that the NSA asked of them, would their CEOs all go to jail, doing enormous damage to the stock market? I don't think so. I think the NSA would fold…

Well I hope this is not the case. I am against the NSA monitoring program. I think powerful commercial interests colluding to purposefully break the rule of law is a huge negative. Lets disconnect this behavior from the specific instance's moral outrage: If Exxon, BP, Chevron, Shell simultaneously came out and ignored all EPA restrictions would their CEOs all go to jail, doing enormous damage to the stock market? Thi…

Depends on which law is being broken. In addition to whether the law is moral, there's also the business implications.

Markets serve customers first. If the companies colluded to act morally in their customers interest and against repressive governments, then I don't see it being a comparable issue. They would be rewarded longer term with customer loyalty.

If oil companies collude to ignore safety regulations, that would harm customers, then it's something that would result in a different market response and much greater legal implications from citizen lawsuits, not only from the government.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#80

Post by dictum » Mon, Aug 12, 2013, 5:50 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #3

Commandeering implies control, and the NSA does not have control. No one has "control" over the Internet. I also don't like this, "us vs. them" rhetoric that this story has turned some people towards, where the NSA are the unequivocal bad guys and we, the "little people", are the unequivocal good guys. That's a great way to get absolutely nothing done. The NSA is, despite everything we're being told by some people (B…

>us vs. them bullshit

Surely not an appropriate point to raise when defending an agency whose raison d'etre is to acquire and analyze all foreign communications. Its existence comes from a us vs. them mentality.

What's happening is that for the USG, "them" now includes not only foreigner suspects; it includes all foreigners and many Americans—probably all Americans.

I don't expect the intelligence agencies of a dictatorship to explain to me, as a non-citizen, how they're "on my side". I wish I could have better expectations for a non-dictatorship, the US: I wish, as foreigner, I wasn't assumed to be an enemy.

So no, the NSA is not on my side, and it's probably not on most Americans' side. Also, things change, and all they're collecting will be using against you when they decide to no longer be on your side.