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The Man Who Would Overthrow Harvard

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Re: The Man Who Would Overthrow Harvard

#51

Post by argonaut »

objclxt wrote: post #21
dominotw wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Over 70% of the undergraduate student body are on scholarship. I am not sure if aid and scholarship are the same thing. But according to this http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2012/1/26/diversity-lack-f... Over 45% of students dont even qualify for aid because their parental income is over $200,000 " we come to the stunning conclusion that approximately 45.6 percent of Harvard undergraduates come from families with…

> I am not sure if aid and scholarship are the same thing. At most Ivy Leagues it effectively is. Harvard also has a 'no debt' policy, so that aid really does have very few strings attached. The Crimson article you linked to uses data from 2010/11, whereas I'm using the latest figures from the admissions office.

Honestly, data from 2010/2011 is sufficiently relevant. College demographic data does not change drastically between years.

Re: The Man Who Would Overthrow Harvard

#52

Post by argonaut »

argumentum wrote: post #9
objclxt wrote: post #6

The 'sticker price' comparison is really misleading here. I don't think the Wall Street Journal do anything to correct this. Here's what the article says: > A degree [at Minerva] will cost less than half the average top-end private education, which is now over $50,000 a year At Harvard today, the minority of students pay full price. Over 70% of the undergraduate student body are on scholarship. Notably, if your famil…

Even if "Minerva" was $1/year, the question is one of value . A degree from Harvard at $50k/year is more valuable than a free one from a UC Berkeley Dean's scholarship student (which is probably about the same difficulty to attain), simply due to the perception it engenders from people that matter.

Agreed, but you are ignoring the opportunity cost. It is highly dubious whether a Harvard education is worth more than a UC Berkeley education + $239,996, though this distinction varies from field to field.

Re: The Man Who Would Overthrow Harvard

#53

Post by jacques_chester »

davidmr wrote: post #45
fecklessyouth wrote: post #20

Nelson's remarks exemplify a disturbing trend amongst technologists, and especially those trying to reform education: Misidentifying sub-par educational experiences and areas of studies as "the liberal arts," and then attributing insufficient outcomes to the liberal arts themselves. If he went to Wharton Business school for undergrad, he does not have a liberal-arts education. History and literature are liberal arts,…

> In the Nelson dream curriculum, all incoming students take the same four yearlong courses. His common core won't make students read the Great Books. "We want to teach you how to think," Mr. Nelson says. A course on "multimodal communications" works on practical writing and debating skills. A "formal systems class" goes over "everything from logic to advanced stats, Big Data, to formal reasoning, to behavioral econ.…

I've sometimes wondered what a St John's style comp sci / software engineering course would look like. Reading and discussing the great literature of our field -- the books, papers and code.

Re: The Man Who Would Overthrow Harvard

#54

Post by fecklessyouth »

argonaut wrote: post #50
fecklessyouth wrote: post #20

Nelson's remarks exemplify a disturbing trend amongst technologists, and especially those trying to reform education: Misidentifying sub-par educational experiences and areas of studies as "the liberal arts," and then attributing insufficient outcomes to the liberal arts themselves. If he went to Wharton Business school for undergrad, he does not have a liberal-arts education. History and literature are liberal arts,…

I don't think you make a very strong argument as to why studying for a specific liberal arts major, as opposed to receiving a generalized American-style "liberal arts education" (referring to the uniquely American method of having a core curriculum and general education requirements), is advantageously able to impart these vaguely defined "critical thinking" skills. You haven't given any solid reasons as to why a pre…

To be clear, I'm not necessarily arguing that it's advantageous. I'm arguing that his experience does not qualify as a liberal arts education, and he shouldn't criticize it at such. You seem to place his experience into a second category:

>as opposed to receiving a generalized American-style "liberal arts education" (referring to the uniquely American method of having a core curriculum and general education requirements)

Neither a core curriculum nor general education requirements qualify an education as "liberal." At least, they shouldn't. The liberal arts are subjects, first and foremost. The humanities, social sciences, and hard sciences. Their power lies in their great history of consideration throughout civilization, their prevailing and constant influence on the affairs of the world, and the nuanced questions that lie at their center.

The liberal arts are inherently inter-disciplinary, and thus invite exposure to more than one. Moreover, the "teaching" of the liberal arts is far different than "research" in the liberal arts, a point often missed in larger university settings. If they are not taught well, you're not receiving an education of any sort.

I'm not criticizing Nelson's education, or at least, don't mean to. But what he's criticizing is not what he thinks. It may be that pre-professional economics degrees normally do impart critical thinking skills. Nelson seems to think they don't. I don't really care; what I know is that these requirements don't meet the demands of the liberal arts: http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/undergrad/academic-excellence/f...

Re: The Man Who Would Overthrow Harvard

#55

Post by rjbond3rd »

argumentum wrote: post #47
rjbond3rd wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense to anyone, but I'll take that Berkeley kid any day.

As may I .. that's not the point.

If you're saying "people who matter" value the superficial over substance, then I'd further conclude that they literally don't matter.

Re: The Man Who Would Overthrow Harvard

#56

Post by BruceIV »

chasing wrote: post #36
BruceIV wrote: post #28

This is the first "let's completely overhaul university" idea I've heard that doesn't completely suck. I like the ideas of world travel and reasonable tuition, and doing away with a lot of the useless cruft of a traditional university - Minereva sounds like fun , and if I was in high school right now, I'd be applying. That said, one possible hassle I can see with this plan is that to bootstrap an "elite" reputation,…

I agree with most of your comment, but I disagree that $20k/yr is a "reasonable tuition" for what Minerva's offering. State schools. They rock. And they're (relatively) cheap. For example, in-state tuition at the University of Texas is about $10k/yr.

Fair - I don't have a great grasp on what higher education costs Stateside, as I'm Canadian - the publicly funded schools tend to manage ~$6000/yr tuition, and the private schools aren't much more.

Re: The Man Who Would Overthrow Harvard

#57

Post by BruceIV »

_delirium wrote: post #38

> Its most expensive employees, tenured faculty... Someone has not paid much attention to the past 20-30 years of developments. Faculty salaries are a falling proportion of university spending. The current cost drivers are administration (both size and salaries) and capital outlays. For example, the University of California system spends only 30% of its budget on faculty salaries (that includes non-tenured faculty).…

The top paid public employee in most states is the football coach at one of the state schools. At most of the others it's the basketball coach.

Re: The Man Who Would Overthrow Harvard

#58

Post by argumentum »

rjbond3rd wrote: post #55
argumentum wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As may I .. that's not the point.

If you're saying "people who matter" value the superficial over substance, then I'd further conclude that they literally don't matter.

My wording may be wrong. If you have something in common with someone, you are more likely to help them and want to work with them. The fact is, Harvard/Ivy/elite private school alums, on the whole, are currently in greater positions of power than Berkeley/elite public school alums (this may change in the future of course).

For that reason alone, the value of being "from Harvard" is greater than being "from Berkeley".

Re: The Man Who Would Overthrow Harvard

#59

Post by argumentum »

argonaut wrote: post #52
argumentum wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if "Minerva" was $1/year, the question is one of value . A degree from Harvard at $50k/year is more valuable than a free one from a UC Berkeley Dean's scholarship student (which is probably about the same difficulty to attain), simply due to the perception it engenders from people that matter.

Agreed, but you are ignoring the opportunity cost. It is highly dubious whether a Harvard education is worth more than a UC Berkeley education + $239,996, though this distinction varies from field to field.

Not really. The opportunity cost of going to Berkeley over Harvard (and I'm specifically choosing Berkeley, a top public school with some programs having a similarly low acceptance rate to Harvard) is not knowing the people who went to Harvard, who are more likely to have powerful connections.

$200k is nothing, really, in the long term. It's one or two years of salary, whether you've gone to Harvard or Berkeley. It's the non-salary aspects that make the Harvard degree (not education) more valuable.

Re: The Man Who Would Overthrow Harvard

#60

Post by argumentum »

argumentum wrote: post #59
argonaut wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but you are ignoring the opportunity cost. It is highly dubious whether a Harvard education is worth more than a UC Berkeley education + $239,996, though this distinction varies from field to field.

Not really. The opportunity cost of going to Berkeley over Harvard (and I'm specifically choosing Berkeley, a top public school with some programs having a similarly low acceptance rate to Harvard) is not knowing the people who went to Harvard, who are more likely to have powerful connections. $200k is nothing, really, in the long term. It's one or two years of salary, whether you've gone to Harvard or Berkeley. It's…

Well actually not even the degree .. just actually going to the school, even if you drop out prior to graduation.
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