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No, really—consciousness is worth thinking about

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Re: No, really—consciousness is worth thinking about

#91

Since we are doing another meta-discussion on how supposedly nasty the comment section is sometimes, I'd like to say I don't have a problem with the tone of the comments at all, and I for one would be really sad if people started pulling their punches. The extremely high degree of criticism found in the comments is actually something I value very highly about this community. One of the things I love about the comment…

> Not being able to handle criticism is a debilitating personality trait for someone who wants to achieve a high level of success in any sort of intellectual pursuit; and that is the reason why I strongly disagree with the desire on the part of some to change this aspect of the community.

There's a difference between intelligent criticism and nit-picking for nit-picking's sake. There's basically a guarantee that no matter how widely accepted a comment or post is, there will be a group of pedants ready to rip it apart in the comments section.

I'm not saying that changing the attitude of the community is necessary, or even possible, but it does get in the way of what otherwise might be stimulating discussion to have all the weeds of "oh you said Z comes after Y, but actually the alphabet has no concept of space, and you're a god damned idiot who should feel ashamed for even suggesting such a thing."

Re: No, really—consciousness is worth thinking about

#92

Since we are doing another meta-discussion on how supposedly nasty the comment section is sometimes, I'd like to say I don't have a problem with the tone of the comments at all, and I for one would be really sad if people started pulling their punches. The extremely high degree of criticism found in the comments is actually something I value very highly about this community. One of the things I love about the comment…

"I strongly disagree with the desire on the part of some to change this aspect of the community."

The community wasn't the way it is right now even a year or two ago. Nothing wrong with trying to change it back to civilized discussion away from a malaise more fitting in /r/programming.

As you say, this is HN.

Re: No, really—consciousness is worth thinking about

#93
For anyone interested in quantum mechanics and consciousness, I recommend Scott Aaronson's book Quantum Computing Since Democritus; the chapters on Penrose are worth the price of admission. His blog, Shtetl-Optimized[1], is also a good read (and I think the book appeared there first).

On a different subject, recently there were a spasm of interest in fMRI studies that showed that "free" choices could be predicted based on neural activity well before a "conscious choice" was made.[2][3][4]

The general consensus seemed to be "Hah! Take that, free will!"

My take on the results were that they were hardly a surprise, if consciousness is an activity of the brain. You should no more expect to make a conscious decision prior to displaying brain activity relating to the decision than you should expect to perceive a flash of light before the light bulb is lit. It would not necessarily have any negative implications for the existence of free will; those experiments are simply exploring the mechanism of free will.

On the other hand, I believe they do kind of imply that consciousness is a product of the jello in your noggin. Either that or there are some funky delays involved.

Now, as for the third buttock: if consciousness doesn’t come from the brain, how does it work, exactly? I'd like some mechanism with my philosophy, thanks. Presumably, if I'm waving my arms around, you can trace the motor neuron activity from my appendages, up my spinal cord, and into my brain. But "and then a miracle occurs" is a pretty uninteresting way to connect that with the universe deciding that jazz hands are necessary.

[1] http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/

[2] http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/04/mind_d...

[3] http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110831/full/477023a.html

[4] http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2009/09/03/free-choic...

Re: No, really—consciousness is worth thinking about

#94

Since we are doing another meta-discussion on how supposedly nasty the comment section is sometimes, I'd like to say I don't have a problem with the tone of the comments at all, and I for one would be really sad if people started pulling their punches. The extremely high degree of criticism found in the comments is actually something I value very highly about this community. One of the things I love about the comment…

I think what you're saying is quite stupid. I often find HN discussions... not sure how to describe it... I guess I just don't like many of the commenters for some unconscious reason. It could be: passive-agressiveness, people who are not emotionally mature (pg), overall negativity, stupid people who try to sound smart. Or something else. The atmosphere on other online communities is more positive, which is a good th…

> I think what you're saying is quite stupid.

I'm assuming this is meant to be ironic and to try and prove something. But I challenge you to find a serious comment on HN that is this over the top negative and backs it up with as little as you do. It really doesn't bother me to be told I'm wrong, if I'm saying something stupid I want to be told that in no uncertain terms so that I don't repeat the same mistake again. But most of all, I want to know why what I said was wrong.

>The atmosphere on other online communities is more positive, which is a good thing. You can disagree without being negative.

I don't disagree that HN comments are different from places like reddit, but you haven't really explained why it's "a good thing". I personally don't find a lot of value in being praised, because I don't learn anything and the danger is I might get a big ego. However, I do find enormous value in constructive criticism. When I have a young student without a ton of self-confidence, then I am generous with giving praise; but when a colleague who I respect comes to me with a bad idea, I treat them with respect by telling them why I think they are wrong.

Re: No, really—consciousness is worth thinking about

#95
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting thing is that the scientific method is fundamentally based on humans agreeing about their experiences, usually ones involving their sense of sight.

No, it's not. It can be used by a single, blind person, be it a human or not.

Human senses are always used to make measurements, but yes, an individual human can agree with himself by repeating scientific experiments.

Re: No, really—consciousness is worth thinking about

#96
post #46
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is something very fundamental about it that we don't understand at all. This makes a lot of people uncomfortable, especially the type of people that would like to turn Science into a religion. I could be wrong, but as an European my understanding is that there are people in the States who actually believe in non-science things like Adam and Eve and all that, so that when you begin to say that maybe Science do…

There are people that believe in 'non-science things' on every continent. I don't see how providing antagonizing labels based on nationality helps your argument at all.

> I don't see how providing antagonizing labels based on nationality helps your argument at all.

I completely understand what paganel said: nationality and culture play an important role here. There are cultures or subcultures that accept that we can be completely wrong in our assertions (are we just dreaming?), or they are based on mysticism, or they are relativists, or they are scientific.

There are prejudices against you in the scientific environment if you have doubts about things like God or consciousness.

Re: No, really—consciousness is worth thinking about

#97
post #53
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is not evidence whatsoever that consciousness emerges from neural activity. None? Ever? Consciousness could just be a free floating quantum mechanical genie attached to my back? Hogcock. We are only brains. If your brain gets squished, you don't really care because you'll cease to exist in this light cone.

How do you know that there are no other components besides the brain that cause there to be subjective experience? One might very well suspect that there is something more, considering that no arrangement of physical parts has come close to qualitatively being the same as a subjective experience. Your soul could be observing your body and being affected by it. While your memories and feelings are in the body, your su…

How does your soul observe and affect your body? (I'm assuming you mean a two-way path there; "observing your body and being affected by it" would be one-way, and would be problematic. "A difference that makes no difference", and all.)

Can this connection be distorted or interrupted? What are the effects of doing so?

If you accept that a drug-induced solipsistic, out-of-body effect[1] is an alteration of subjective experience, are you then going to argue that "While your memories, feelings, and subjective experience are in the body, your X may not be." What would X be?

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6197315

Re: No, really—consciousness is worth thinking about

#98
I didn't come across the HN post when the original article was posted. I think the original article has many warning signs of "sophomoric" thinking to warrant rapid dismissal.

The first big bold warning sign is this -

    "After reading and listening to David Chalmers, I came 
    to realize that there is an intelligent argument that
    supports the idea that consciousness does not emerge 
    from the brain.
    
    Quantum Mechanics"
Invoking the "magic" and "mysterious" quantum mechanics to understand and explain something that isn't even defined in the article is, indeed, "sophomoric philosophy".

In the original article, you'll also find this regarding the Schrodinger's cat "paradox" -

    "Many physicists today think the many-worlds theory
    resolves this paradox by stating that there are actually 
    infinitely many universes, some in which you are dead and 
    some in which you are living, and that once the quantum 
    trigger is measured/observed, a specific universe is 
    followed."
Plain wrong. The "many worlds" is not a "theory", but an interpretation of quantum mechanics. It does not add any new physical mechanisms over and above what we already have in quantum mechanics - i.e. there is no "once a quantum trigger is measured/observed" in the many worlds interpretation. All these universes exist. Period.

The problem of "observation" in quantum mechanics is being discussed here without even a mention of "decoherence". AFAIK, the unexplained part of quantum mechanics to date is the Born probabilities - i.e. why does the likelihood of observing an event correspond to the magnitude square of the amplitude we calculate for it. There are some recent insights into this, but I believe this is still unexplained.

The original thing that the article sought to explore is whether it is possible that consciousness does not come from the brain. If that is indeed the primary point to be explored in this essay, the question to be asked is what does "come from the brain" mean? When a current passes through a memory circuit, it toggles from 0 to 1. What does it mean to say this "comes from the circuit"? Does is not also "come from the current"?

We thus reach a point where all we can say is "shut up and compute", for we've fallen into the trappings of everyday language.

edit: typos.

Re: No, really—consciousness is worth thinking about

#99

I upvoted the original article not necessarily because I thought it was particularly well-written, but because I looked forward to seeing what the HN comments about the article would say. Nevertheless, I left to go somewhere before I had a chance to peruse them. I think in a conversation about consciousness, it's very important to define exactly what it is you're talking about. I'm not a neuroscientist, but I get the…

The only sensible experiential definition I've heard for consciousness is the word "cognizance". Meaning, consciousness is the ability to be aware. This is the term many Buddhists use in translation, and it's by far the best fitting for me.

It fundamentally comes from asking the question, "What am I if you strip away everything that is impermanent?" Emotions are impermanent, thoughts are impermanent, sensations are impermanent... but cognizance -- if you take that away, there is no longer anything. It is the most fundamental.

I didn't notice the earlier post on this, but I think all people should think deeply on this. It is not just sophomoric philosophy, it's deeply practical, and few people bashing it understand it. That lack of understanding leads incredibly often to, well, suffering.

Acknowledging the nature of existence intellectually isn't enough, you need to experience it. I see this very often in people of any age. Fear of death, fear of loss, fear of love, fear of change. But at the root, no matter what happens if you are comfortable with the nature of your own existence, you know that no one can take that cognizance away. Buddhists monks manage to light themselves calmly on fire in the interest of helping others.

Anyway. I obviously have many thoughts on this. It's something I've been thinking about and meditating on a great deal for over a decade. I will just end with a famous quote by Pascal.

All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone.

EDIT: I also hate it when philosophers abuse physics. I'm a physicist, so every time I hear "quantum mechanics" in a philosophical context I put down the book to avoid throwing it. As a friend put it, as soon as Buddhist monks can derive the ground state of the hydrogen atom, I'll give them credit for understanding quantum mechanics. I think that people who suggest that Buddhism is related to these sorts of things know neither physics nor Buddhism.

Re: No, really—consciousness is worth thinking about

#100

Everybody keeps getting the Schrödinger's cat experiment 100% backwards. It was created by Schrödinger to highlight how absurd the interpretation of quantum mechanics was at that time. Since then, even the Copenhagen interpretation basically says that the "observation" happens already at the Geiger counter: "Analysis of an actual experiment found that measurement alone (for example by a Geiger counter) is sufficient…

I once had a friend who described a RPG scenario in a world in which "science doesn't work". My response was, "Wait, science is, by definition, figuring out, by whatever means, what works and what does not, whatever that means." Postulating that science doesn't work, or that "we can't study it", is going to result in a radically odd universe.
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