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Obama to release FISA court opinion that ruled NSA surveillance unconstitutional

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Re: Obama to release FISA court opinion that ruled NSA surveillance unconstitutional

#31
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a matter of official policy to include legal loopholes that enable the Federal government to assert its power rather than comply with the law.

I'm curious what you mean when you say "official policy". Did you mean, that's how the machine works, people will always find/create loopholes. Or did you mean there is a technical provision somewhere that somehow mandates the existence of such loopholes?

Catch22

Re: Obama to release FISA court opinion that ruled NSA surveillance unconstitutional

#32

It's fascinating that the situation is such a mockery of the rule of law, yet it keeps on rolling. If the FISA decided that the NSA's activities were illegal, why would it keep rubber-stamping the warrants? It seems like at that point it should deny every single request going forward until the illegal activities have stopped. Is there a process for impeaching the FISA judges for malfeasance?

Any "civil officer of the United States" can be impeached. In fact, judges are the majority of officials that have been successfully impeached. Calls for impeachment are more often frivolous than they are serious though.

How do you know the court has continued to rubber-stamp the activities it considers unconstitutional?

Re: Obama to release FISA court opinion that ruled NSA surveillance unconstitutional

#33

At a point in our nation's early history, we decided to trust Constitutional interpretation to the Supreme Court. There were cons to that decision - the Constitution is our social contract and thus it's interpretation is ultimately up to the people - but on the whole I think it was a good one. But, if for whatever reason, this Judicial review cannot occur - whether that be willful avoidance by the DEA for "Parallel C…

The people are trusted with the interpretation of Constitutionality and government legitimacy through Article I, Section 2, Paragraph 1, Article I, Section 3, Paragraph I (as amended), Article III, Section 2, Paragraph 3 of the US Constitution, Article VI of the Constitution, The First, Second, Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh Amendments to the Constitution.

Re: Obama to release FISA court opinion that ruled NSA surveillance unconstitutional

#34

As I referenced in another thread, Obama himself voted for the FISA amendment[1]. How clearer must it get that people working for companies like AT&T and Booz Allen are complicit in receiving monetary remuneration for collaborating with various arms of the government in circumventing/intel laundering/routing around the laws and regulations said arms of the government were to be checking each other against? Must there…

I think you should eat brussel sprouts. My opinion entitles me to publicly deride you for failing to meet your moral imperatives. To do anything else makes you complicit in the great evil intrinsic to non-brussel sprout consumption.

I am a one dimensional human being who can easily assess the complexities in your life, so we're cool with this broad statement, right? There's clearly no other reasons you could be avoiding brussel sprout consumption.

Re: Obama to release FISA court opinion that ruled NSA surveillance unconstitutional

#35

As I referenced in another thread, Obama himself voted for the FISA amendment[1]. How clearer must it get that people working for companies like AT&T and Booz Allen are complicit in receiving monetary remuneration for collaborating with various arms of the government in circumventing/intel laundering/routing around the laws and regulations said arms of the government were to be checking each other against? Must there…

I think you should eat brussel sprouts. My opinion entitles me to publicly deride you for failing to meet your moral imperatives. To do anything else makes you complicit in the great evil intrinsic to non-brussel sprout consumption. I am a one dimensional human being who can easily assess the complexities in your life, so we're cool with this broad statement, right? There's clearly no other reasons you could be avoid…

What moral imperatives were implied?

Re: Obama to release FISA court opinion that ruled NSA surveillance unconstitutional

#36

I donated money to Obama's 2008 campaign and voted for him twice. I am very disappointed with him. Now, my honest opinion is that at worst he sometimes flat out lies, or at least cleverly tries to confuse people. He says that he had an orderly plan for reviewing privacy issues, all the while, I think that his administration has consistently been trying to keep things hushed up.

Mark, I agree. I think that the situation is this: politicians, in the short term, view the security side of the security vs. freedom debate as the best option. If you can stop a terrorist attack from occurring by infringing freedom, then do it. An attack will make you look much worse than a few intelligent people being upset about privacy invasion. That, sadly, is the unfortunate incentive happening here.

I think this short term benefit of always choosing security over freedom has always been too tempting for politicans and leaders not to do it. The founders recognized this, which is why the 4th Amendment, along with the rest of the Constitution, is supposed to be enforced by the separate branch of government that is the Judicial Branch.

But you know what? The Judicial Branch hasn't kept up with the Executive at all. The Executive Branch has huge agencies within it. The Judicial Branch is just a few judges and their staff.

Why isn't there a Judicial Branch agency that safeguards the Constitution from the other two branches?? Why couldn't this agency have a bunch of people with Top Secret clearances working for it who answer to nobody but the Supreme Court and can be contacted by Edward Snowden type whistle-blowers whenever someone feels the folks they work for are undermining the Constitution?

We need a Constitution Protection Agency that is part of the Judicial Branch. Their entire job should be going after the bastards in the other two branches who go against the constitution.

Re: Obama to release FISA court opinion that ruled NSA surveillance unconstitutional

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should eat brussel sprouts. My opinion entitles me to publicly deride you for failing to meet your moral imperatives. To do anything else makes you complicit in the great evil intrinsic to non-brussel sprout consumption. I am a one dimensional human being who can easily assess the complexities in your life, so we're cool with this broad statement, right? There's clearly no other reasons you could be avoid…

What moral imperatives were implied?

I'm sorry- perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were suggesting that anyone who works for these companies MUST somehow be complicit in these encroachments by the government.

If that's not the case, I think you're cool on not eating your brussel sprouts.

Re: Obama to release FISA court opinion that ruled NSA surveillance unconstitutional

#38
post #9
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will release a redacted version of the opinion in question, and a redacted version of exactly one paragraph from a classified whitepaper given to congress on it. In both cases, how redacted they will be is up in the air. They requested an extension until August 21st to do this (original deadline was August 12th). The EFF "reluctantly did not oppose this"

> They requested an extension until August 21st to do this (original deadline was August 12th). I don't get it; how long could it possibly take to redact such documents? Is there somebody toiling 8 hours a day for 7 or 8 more days, scrambling to get this done in time? Or are they lazily just sticking it on the backburner of some intern?

According to the document they've had to involve some senior people in deciding what to redact and there are only a few people in government with the expertise in the relevant issues. My guess is that the redaction involves at least two agencies (DOJ and NSA) and there's communication overhead.

Re: Obama to release FISA court opinion that ruled NSA surveillance unconstitutional

#39

I donated money to Obama's 2008 campaign and voted for him twice. I am very disappointed with him. Now, my honest opinion is that at worst he sometimes flat out lies, or at least cleverly tries to confuse people. He says that he had an orderly plan for reviewing privacy issues, all the while, I think that his administration has consistently been trying to keep things hushed up.

What saddens me is that while in the 2012 elections it seems most Obama voters were effectively choosing the lesser of two evils, in 2008 they were voting for Obama. They believed in what he was supposed to represent.

In retrospect, maybe they were voting against Bush. In the next election maybe a majority will vote against Obama, and the game will keep going.

Re: Obama to release FISA court opinion that ruled NSA surveillance unconstitutional

#40

I donated money to Obama's 2008 campaign and voted for him twice. I am very disappointed with him. Now, my honest opinion is that at worst he sometimes flat out lies, or at least cleverly tries to confuse people. He says that he had an orderly plan for reviewing privacy issues, all the while, I think that his administration has consistently been trying to keep things hushed up.

I wrote this a couple days ago in response to another HN comment but it's relevant here too; the first paragraph is the one I responded to:

>The question is then; in a two party system where both offer the blue pill, who the hell do you vote for?

Greens or libertarians, which I have been doing for a long time. Real change starts at the ballot box.

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