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Senic (YC S13) builds a laser distance meter for smartphones

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Re: Senic (YC S13) builds a laser distance meter for smartphones

#31

Post by kyro »

I love this for two reasons.

First, this is a great example of creating a solution for a small yet annoying problem people have just come to live with. Second, I really like that they're creating well-designed tools for a very specific niche of customers. This isn't a general purpose device for mass consumption, but for architects, interior designers and the like -- professionals whose industry, like most other industries, does not get enough attention in the way of high-quality, well-designed, 'sexy' solutions. There are a ton of opportunities to provide similar solutions to other markets. Withings, for example, produces a really well-designed and easy-to-use blood pressure cuff [1].

As for the Senic, I wouldn't get one myself, but my parents, who are frequently fixing and renovating things around their home and dabble in real estate, definitely would.

1. http://withings.com/en/bloodpressuremonitor

Re: Senic (YC S13) builds a laser distance meter for smartphones

#32

Post by stephengillie »

twald wrote: post #25
DEinspanjer wrote: post #15

This project is interesting, and I preordered one because the last time I had to transcribe measurements of a room into modeling software, I was quite frustrated at the time and complexity of the task. One thing I'm not happy about is that I did not see any information about software currently in compatibility testing or plans to support specific software. I won't be satisfied if the device is delivered and I can't a…

Thanks for pre-ordering one of the devices. We come from the measurement Industry and were struggling with the same problems. We designed Senic to be the most flexible device it could be. We will give out a few apps for iOS and Android that relieve the biggest pain for people (mostly in the building industry) but will keep developing more applications (new apps, integration into existing software, Linux support etc.)…

AutoCAD support would be awesome. I have a couple friends who run their own stainless steel fabrication & kitchen install business, and getting salesmen and business owners to give them accurate measurements is a huge pain point for them.

If a wall shifts 1 inch across 20 feet, they can build for that, if they have those measurements. But when they are told to make a sink-with-backsplash square, and there's an ugly gap between it and the wall -- well, reworking that tiny gap is almost as expensive as building the table itself.

Re: Senic (YC S13) builds a laser distance meter for smartphones

#33

Post by beambot »

stephengillie wrote: post #23
Retric wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a full processor for time of flight just a few transistors which can cheaply operate at ~10GHz. Speed of light / 10ghz = 3cm, but your talking round trip timings so ~1.5 cm is possible. Multiple frequency phase-shift or Interferometry allows you to do even better.

Very good point -- you'd have these fast, expensive transistors (however they are packaged or not packaged) cache their data, then transfer it back to a slower, cheaper, main microprocessor, which would be doing the rest of the device's work. Do you know where these 10 GHz transistors can be found?

Laser rangefinders don't switch the light source at 10GHz. They "chop" the laser on-off at (say) 10kHz. The measure the difference between the reference (onboard) and the return using (typically) a PLL that can measure time differences down to picoseconds (these are usually used in high-frequency RF equipment). Using a microcontroller counter would be too slow.

Cheaper LRF's can use triangulation with a known baseline. That's how Neato robotic managed their $10 spinning version for the vacuum: http://www.hizook.com/blog/2009/12/20/ultra-low-cost-laser-r...

To wit... I like to disassemble laser rangefinders!

http://www.hizook.com/blog/2009/01/04/velodyne-hdl-64e-laser...

http://www.hizook.com/blog/2009/02/14/omron-sti-optoshield-o...

http://www.hizook.com/blog/2008/12/15/sick-laser-rangefinder...

Re: Senic (YC S13) builds a laser distance meter for smartphones

#34

Post by ohazi »

stephengillie wrote: post #19

Laser distance meters have been available to contractors for years. The major difference Senic adds, over Ryobi, Bosch & Fluke, is bluetooth & cloud syncing. I have always wondered how these devices actually calculate distances. I have experimented with Arduino & Parallax, and I've seen how the resolution of an ultrasonic distance sensor is directly affected by the processor speed -- the processor is merely counting…

These devices do their measurement in a completely different way.

Laser distance meters are essentially tiny radar units operating with light instead of radio waves (lidar). With a pulse radar, you need the pulse itself to be of extremely short duration, especially when you're measuring short distances. You need to have stopped transmitting by the time you begin receiving the reflection to have any hope of actually finding the reflection (because the return "sounds" exactly like what you're transmitting). In order to reliably detect a short unmodulated pulse, the transmitted power generally has to be pretty high so that the reflection is loud enough that you don't miss it.

Short pulses and high power are generally hard to do with cheap semiconductor devices (big radar pulse generators tend to use vacuum tubes and exotic and expensive hardware).

A better approach for lower power devices is to modulate the carrier wave itself and then transmit a longer, lower power pulse. One way to do this is to transmit a "chirp" (a transmission that starts at a low frequency and ramps up to a high frequency). When you receive the radar return, you'll start receiving the initial low frequency while the transmitter has moved on to transmitting a higher frequency. You can then use this frequency difference and the chirp rate to compute the time of flight and therefore the distance. This also has an added advantage of allowing you to integrate the received signal for a much longer period of time, so it tends to be a lot less noisy and error prone than a pulse radar.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMCW#Modulated_continuous-wave

Re: Senic (YC S13) builds a laser distance meter for smartphones

#35

Post by doubledub »

kyro wrote: post #31

I love this for two reasons. First, this is a great example of creating a solution for a small yet annoying problem people have just come to live with. Second, I really like that they're creating well-designed tools for a very specific niche of customers. This isn't a general purpose device for mass consumption, but for architects, interior designers and the like -- professionals whose industry, like most other indus…

Agreed. This would be enormously useful for vacation rentals and real estate professionals. Add on and partnerships with virtual tour companies would be expansion value.

Re: Senic (YC S13) builds a laser distance meter for smartphones

#37

Post by stephengillie »

beambot wrote: post #33
stephengillie wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very good point -- you'd have these fast, expensive transistors (however they are packaged or not packaged) cache their data, then transfer it back to a slower, cheaper, main microprocessor, which would be doing the rest of the device's work. Do you know where these 10 GHz transistors can be found?

Laser rangefinders don't switch the light source at 10GHz. They "chop" the laser on-off at (say) 10kHz. The measure the difference between the reference (onboard) and the return using (typically) a PLL that can measure time differences down to picoseconds (these are usually used in high-frequency RF equipment). Using a microcontroller counter would be too slow. Cheaper LRF's can use triangulation with a known baselin…

Wow, amazing!

Re: Senic (YC S13) builds a laser distance meter for smartphones

#38

Post by cbhl »

kevingibbon wrote: post #20

Love the idea for the professional. Is there any way to measure less precisely using the iPhone's camera? Something about using the gyroscope to get a depth measurement?

More likely you'd use algorithms based on structure from motion, like in the Kinect. But that's definitely not the target market for these guys.

Re: Senic (YC S13) builds a laser distance meter for smartphones

#39

Post by twald »

stephengillie wrote: post #32
twald wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for pre-ordering one of the devices. We come from the measurement Industry and were struggling with the same problems. We designed Senic to be the most flexible device it could be. We will give out a few apps for iOS and Android that relieve the biggest pain for people (mostly in the building industry) but will keep developing more applications (new apps, integration into existing software, Linux support etc.)…

AutoCAD support would be awesome. I have a couple friends who run their own stainless steel fabrication & kitchen install business, and getting salesmen and business owners to give them accurate measurements is a huge pain point for them. If a wall shifts 1 inch across 20 feet, they can build for that, if they have those measurements. But when they are told to make a sink-with-backsplash square, and there's an ugly g…

Awesome. Thanks for the feedback. AutoCAD is in our top 10. A lot of people want to see this integration for various uses.

Re: Senic (YC S13) builds a laser distance meter for smartphones

#40

Post by twald »

hodoublesy wrote: post #36

Just preordered three of these for various projects I have in mind/that could take advantage of this, awesome work! Do you have any idea when more details on the SDK/API will be available?

We will publish a SDK/API preview within the next two weeks. If you send me a quick message to support(a)senic.com, I will make sure you'll be informed.
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