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Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

coding2learn.org

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Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#171

Post by marincounty »

ethanbond wrote: post #2

So I take it the author can fix any brand of car and would, without missing a beat, answer questions like "where's the expansion tank?" I'm so tired of "tech savvy" people simultaneously sitting on their high chairs and large salaries dissuading anything that makes their trade less esoteric - and then talking down to those who can't pierce the veil for whatever reason (whether it by financial, intellectual, or just n…

After reading some of the comments, the thing that surprised me the most is how many Programmers can't work on their own car? I just took it for granted, if a person learned how a computer works--they would know how their computer controled automobile would work? Especially, these days with the Internet and cheap scanners?

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#172

Post by BWStearns »

simonsarris wrote: post #36

I get the feeling that the author was judging the person he was helping far more harshly than the perceived judgement she might have passed on him. Maybe she was tired, clearly she was frustrated, but it wasn't obvious that she held the author in any disdain, though the author seemed to perceive it. What we're sure of is that the author held her in such low regard. I wonder if she picked up on that. I suspect she did…

>> The first rule of any educator is to never, under any circumstances, make someone feel inept. And it was so easily avoidable here.

In none of these instances did anyone attempt to seek out knowledge. They were looking for a solution. If they had said "how do I [get on the network|reinstall the OS|rip this file off YouTube]?" then it would be a lot easier for me to dismiss him as a curmudgeonly holier-than-thou IT guy.

I know plenty of people (and I even like some of them as people) who intentionally do not learn to do things on the computer because then they can't ask me to do it for them. When I like these people I make a subversive effort to teach them anyways, otherwise I just get it done for them to get them away from me, feelings be damned. Actual computer literacy (not MS Office literacy) is actually a necessary skill today in almost every office job. Knowing how to program? Probably not. Knowing how to connect to a network? Probably.

Finally, it is so damned easy now to google something, that much of the described behavior is inexcusable. Oh, but your problem is connecting to the internet? It sure would be helpful if you had a small computer in your pocket that could independently connect to the internet over some infrastructure that wasn't dependent on your local network, bummer.

But seriously we should actually be concerned about this and I hope that education does get better on this. I do fear that interfaces are almost too rich, meaning that it takes a concerted effort to "really" use a computer, unlike in even the recent past where you were forced to. Many people who were accidentally exposed to the more in depth aspect of computing and found it interesting would not have sought it out on their own, meaning that as a community we are losing out on that category of people going forward.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#173

Post by jlgreco »

300bps wrote: post #132
simonsarris wrote: post #36

I get the feeling that the author was judging the person he was helping far more harshly than the perceived judgement she might have passed on him. Maybe she was tired, clearly she was frustrated, but it wasn't obvious that she held the author in any disdain, though the author seemed to perceive it. What we're sure of is that the author held her in such low regard. I wonder if she picked up on that. I suspect she did…

I get the feeling that the author was judging the person he was helping far more harshly than the perceived judgement she might have passed on him. There are certain professions that get brought problems constantly by people who think nothing of having you work for them for free. Doctors get this constantly at parties, at the grocery store, functions for their kids, etc. "Does this look like anything to you?" To a mu…

I use to experience this heavily. I've resorted to self-deprecating humor to tell them to buzz off without them feeling too insulted.

"Oh wow, [Windows|OSX]? I don't know how this stuff works, I only work with little computers!"

With my parents I feel less obliged to be polite so I generally just say something about not bothering a mechanical engineer with your car problems. The idea there is to emphasize that despite a degree in something they think is plainly related to installing printer drivers in windows XP, that is not actually something that I am trained in.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#174

Post by maxbrown »

angersock wrote: post #125
brandon272 wrote: post #64

I found that the author came across as extraordinarily condescending with the whole "let's get the president on the phone" thing. I'm sure that the woman he was dealing with understood full well that the "Internet" itself was probably fine and that it was her configuration that was the problem. Though I guess he took the holier-than-thou approach because she didn't use the precise terminology that he would have prefe…

The author wasn't even an IT bro--he was a stand-in whose real job was teaching. This all said, would you expect that a doctor would have patience with somebody who insisted "My body hurts" without being willing to provide more detail? Terminology matters, and those who think it does not are doomed to be taken advantage of by people with more nuanced ways of reasoning about the world.

I can't think of any doctors I know who would respond to "My body hurts" with disdain, rather than "Can you tell me where, and what type of pain?". If you genuinely wanted to help someone, would the terminology really get in the way?

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#175

Post by ht_th »

ethanbond wrote: post #2

So I take it the author can fix any brand of car and would, without missing a beat, answer questions like "where's the expansion tank?" I'm so tired of "tech savvy" people simultaneously sitting on their high chairs and large salaries dissuading anything that makes their trade less esoteric - and then talking down to those who can't pierce the veil for whatever reason (whether it by financial, intellectual, or just n…

Unfortunately your car analogy does not compute. A car is a device to do one thing and one thing only: getting you from A to B. A computer is a universal tool in the sense that it can almost be any tool. Being able to harness that power is "knowing computers". Without being able to harness that power you're unable to truly master your environment as you see fit. You're then restricted by what those who have mastered the computer^* allow you to do.

^*: i.e., programmers, computer manufacturers, software providers, saas providers, and so on.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#176

Post by incision »

>"A hundred years ago, if you were lucky enough to own a car then you probably knew how to fix it. People could at least change the oil, change the tyres, or even give the engine a tune-up. I’ve owned a car for most of my adult life and they’re a mystery to me."

I wonder if this guys mechanic/dealership is as much of an assumptive, condescending douche towards him as he admittedly is toward everyone who seeks his help?

There are good points in there, but they're buried among 4000+ words of rambling tripe.

Personally, I agree with bits of what is presented. Thing is, I don't think these are things which necessarily need fixing. We're in a period of transition where this kind of mismatch is apparent, but it will fade quickly with time and I'd question the impact of widespread low-level literacy on progress.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#177

Post by DocG »

I am under 25 and I can use a computer. Why? Because my parents bought me only my first computer and refused to upgrade after that. At one point my need for playing new games got the best of me and I started experimenting. First OS cleanup, first format, first memory upgrade, etc.

I have never really learned how do deal with computers. Its just 10+ years of just fixing whatever is broken/not working, because there was no one to fix it for me.

Now I just have to find a job where I can do this problem solving for money

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#178

Post by robbles »

GhotiFish wrote: post #146
simonsarris wrote: post #36

I get the feeling that the author was judging the person he was helping far more harshly than the perceived judgement she might have passed on him. Maybe she was tired, clearly she was frustrated, but it wasn't obvious that she held the author in any disdain, though the author seemed to perceive it. What we're sure of is that the author held her in such low regard. I wonder if she picked up on that. I suspect she did…

This is how I keep myself from being angry at regular people just trying to use computers. I have a car, I just want to use my car. I don't really care all that much how it works (thought to be honest, combustion engines are pretty cool!). I'm vehicularaly inept. I can drive, but I can't diagnose and I can't troubleshoot (though I can change a wheel). In my position, It's my hope that the vehicular technicians opposi…

The difference here is that we're willing to pay those vehicular technicians a realistic amount of money for their expertise, and nobody expects a mechanic to fix your car for for free, even if it'll "only take a second".

I also have a healthy respect for their skills, and if my car breaks down, I'd be embarrassed about my ignorance and inability to fix or diagnose the problem (and I suspect most people would too).

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#179

Post by glhaynes »

jlgreco wrote: post #151
glhaynes wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being able to change a tire is a great skill to have because it may be very beneficial for safety. The rest are blatantly obvious things that nobody has to learn nor devote time to doing while they could be doing something else. Well, except maybe for adding windshield fluid… but they do that for me when they change my oil. :)

I suppose we have different perspectives on what the general public is capable of. To me, changing your oil yourself is somewhere on par with being able to connect to wifi yourself. Sure, you'll often just get other people to do it for you when you are having other more extensive work done on the car, but having to get somebody to do it for you seems sort of like having to call "Geek Squad" to connect to your home wi…

I suppose we have different perspectives on what the general public is capable of.

Who's talking about capability? I'm sure the vast majority of people are capable of it. Likewise, I'm sure you're capable of performing lots of the services you pay for. Nevertheless, we all decide differently which things we want to do ourselves and which things we like specialists to do for us.

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