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Lavabit abruptly shuts down

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Re: Lavabit abruptly shuts down

#621

Post by kelvin0 »

The whole system is collapsing under it's own weight. There is no simple solution, we simply need to accept that the current power structure in place and anything resembling it will always cling to power for it's own sake.

It's up to us to decide if we want to continue having our cake and eating it too. What I mean is that we cannot continue incensing our shiny techno-gadgets based system, and then also be surprised that the same system tries to keep itself 'on top' by whatever mean necessary.

We need to change our attitudes and actions within the current system, anything else is simply a band-aid on an open wound.

Re: Lavabit abruptly shuts down

#622

Post by Dylan16807 »

rwallace wrote: post #515
Dylan16807 wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Participates" is a perfectly acceptable word for silently complying with a law. Especially for an international company that could have changed jurisdiction of the relevant servers.

"Participates" is not at all an acceptable word for actions taken under duress, and for an international company, changing jurisdiction of the relevant servers would have made no difference whatsoever. As long as your flesh-and-blood body is located in the US, or in a country that chooses to enforce US law in such matters (or will ever be so located in the future, even for a stopover on an international flight), your…

There are different levels of duress. Nobody pointed a gun at Google. They could have refused if they truly wanted to.

Can the US serve a warrant to a server in Europe run by Europeans? I was assuming the answer was no, in which case you don't need violate any laws or worry about repercussions.

Re: Lavabit abruptly shuts down

#623

Post by techtalsky »

meritt wrote: post #108
RyanZAG wrote: post #24

I'm in the process of moving any Saas offerings I use off USA-affiliated companies, but it's actually more difficult than I first thought. I believe there might even be a very profitable market in simply duplicating the functionality of Saas offerings at a higher price with security/privacy guarantees in Germany/HK/etc. Might be the next hot business to be in? You'd be surprised as to the number of people seeking alt…

Moving services off USA-based companies is like using two bicycle locks instead of one. A determined government is still going to get your data, they just need to spend a bit more time. Focus instead on encryption.

The problem with encryption in this case when it comes to US companies is that the US can compel US companies to install custom backdoors while pretending they are still secure and not notify their customers that this happened.

Re: Lavabit abruptly shuts down

#624

Post by gte910h »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #412
gte910h wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They especially can't compel you to break the law (assuming you set up some kind of situation where it's fraud/perjury/whatever to lie). They can most certainly hold you in contempt because you got your self in that mess. >look at how email retention works. Document retention policies are allowed because otherwise the civil court system would be prohibitively expensive (lawyers have to read all your email once you g…

Hold you in contempt for something you did years before the case was filed or the investigation even started? God, that's even worse than contempt of court for failing to say passwords under the fifth amendment. I'm pretty sure I have some truecrypt containers I've forgotten the passwords to, sure hope I never get arrested!

I think automatically breaking a gag order by a complicated mechanism is pretty contemptuous of someone trying to not get that information out?

I am not saying they're not worthy of that contempt, merely that they don't care if they are, just if you're showing contempt for the process and violating the order

Re: Lavabit abruptly shuts down

#625

Post by anoncowherd »

yajoe wrote: post #350
lmkg wrote: post #15

For the unfamiliar: Lavabit was a webmail service, that (claimed to) encrypt emails in such a way that they literally did not have access to the content stored on their own servers. The linked email would lend some credence to those claims. It was originally designed in contrast to gmail scanning your email for targeted advertising, but my imperfect memory says that their system should also have been resilient to "we…

Edit: I was a PM on Exchange and Exchange Hosted Encryption for some time, so it looks like Lavabit tried to fight the government on whether they are required to release private keys. I've seen one other customer try to fight, and it was not pretty either. The US government in these cases are serious. Takeaway for fellow hackers: If you are building a system that stores user-generated data, prepare for the eventualit…

> P.S. Right or wrong is a separate conversation...

No it's not. This is wrong, plain and simple. Wrong is wrong, and black is black.

Re: Lavabit abruptly shuts down

#626

Post by greendata »

prawks wrote: post #609
greendata wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just going to be hosting providers that are affected by this. It's going to lawyers, software engineers, sys admins, writers and graphic designers who are going to lose work/business from SAAS companies. Software is one of the few areas where the US economy is growing somewhat sustainably (as opposed to banking/gambling/housing speculation/medical expenses for elderly). The NSA and all those NSA contractors…

I guess the obvious question to this post is: What are you doing on your own checklist? Those are some pretty extremist notions. If part of your hiring criteria was to exclude anyone who had worked for a contractor or directly for a government organization, I doubt many people would want to work for you. Not because they had violated your criteria, either.

Generally, I won't be hiring them, in hiring interviews I'd recommend against them for ethical reasons, and I'll avoid doing work for them if possible.

I'm referring to a very small percentage of the government and contract workers who are involved in security and surveillance. I'm not talking about VA or even the regular marines/navy/police.

I won't be doing this explicitly.

Whether people would want to to work in a place that explicitly will not work with former NSA contractors depends on the area. In SF, Boston, NYC, Portland, maybe LA it would probably help you hire good workers. Obviously, in DC or Houston it would be more controversial and hurt the company. Remember these organizations/contractors are destroying our jobs, especially in silicon valley.

Re: Lavabit abruptly shuts down

#627

Post by cLeEOGPw »

Peaker wrote: post #571
cLeEOGPw wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be delusional. Unless you have business intentions, that rely on government not knowing what your business is, it is NOT, by any stretch of imagination" a reason to leave a country like USA, the more so for a Central American country. This issue is so minor to most people that many don't even give it much thought. I am sure you can live with the government watching you and still make some kind of contribution t…

It doesn't really matter that much that the NSA spies on the whole world. I care a lot less that other governments watch me than my own government. Other governments can watch all day, but they don't yield serious power over me.

USA have power in most countries. Look at the case when venesuela president plane was forced to land in austria because of the rumors there could be showden inside. Americans who downvoted me think only america is affected, but it is not. It's sad that people even here don't understand that.

Re: Lavabit abruptly shuts down

#628

Post by Ningzhi »

afarrell wrote: post #513

Wired says "Court records show that, in June, Lavabit complied with a routine search warrant targeting a child pornography suspect in a federal case in Maryland. That suggests that Levison isn’t a privacy absolutist." Can anyone find me a primary source on this document? It is from http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/08/lavabit-snowden/

http://dblf27q6vp5m8.cloudfront.net/Lavabit_Joey006.pdf

Re: Lavabit abruptly shuts down

#629

Post by nilved »

epo wrote: post #565
nilved wrote: post #478

I regret giving Lavabit my business and more so paying for several years up front. This is immensely disrespectful.

Jesus! The guy is being leaned on by the Government. This is his only option to maintain customer privacy. "disrespectful"? There aren't polite words to describe the contenpt I have for whiners like you.

Moving forward, yes. Why can't he provide content dumps?
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