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NSA revelations could hurt collaboration with 'betrayed' hackers

reuters.com

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Re: NSA revelations could hurt collaboration with 'betrayed' hackers

#81

Post by krek »

tptacek wrote: post #77
krek wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> his own "ThinThread" system was designed to do exactly that, but with better technical controls over who could view the data. That's plainly false. His system was specifically designed to throw-out private data, that is, never to store it. There is no data to view if it's not stored. See his 29C3 technical talk where he goes over it. [1] >The notion that Binney is a staunch opponent of PRISM-style surveillance is r…

New Yorker: Pilot tests of ThinThread proved almost too successful, according to a former intelligence expert who analyzed it. “It was nearly perfect,” the official says. “But it processed such a large amount of data that it picked up more Americans than the other systems.” Though ThinThread was intended to intercept foreign communications, it continued documenting signals when a trail crossed into the U.S. This was…

The New Yorker's Mayer is paraphrasing an anonymous source, which she then counter-points in the very next sentence of the article with a quote from NSA historian Matthew Aid, who says: “The resistance to ThinThread was just standard bureaucratic politics. ThinThread was small, cost-effective, easy to understand, and protected the identity of Americans.” [1]

That's what Binney and Drake have said all along.

[1] http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/23/110523fa_fact_...

Re: NSA revelations could hurt collaboration with 'betrayed' hackers

#82

Post by rdl »

bazillion wrote: post #59
tptacek wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I do have things to back it up. No, I'm not simply referring to cryptography. NSA is a very large organization; Bill Binney's say-so doesn't mean a whole lot to me. Look at the kinds of people that "graduate" from NSA TAO, and note that that's the program they let us know about . If you want to be wishful about this point, I won't stop you.

All of the truly remarkable intelligences I met, I met at NSA. There are certainly people that aren't (as with any organization), but the NSA is probably the only meritocracy in the USG. The pipeline for advancement is one of either taking a technical route or a management route. This means that you can reach the highest levels of the organization and pay grades simply by being good at what you do in an analytical se…

I've met some genuinely sub-par-for-anywhere NSA people as well, though, although in the various letters which correspond to internal sysadmin support and the like.

If you believe government service has any value at all, you should also be willing to blacklist/ostracize when someone continues to support a corrupt/evil part of government. If I saw someone's resume from LAPD Rampart during certain years, I'd be quite suspect. Various foreign militaries. I'm suspect of CIA in the 1990s due to incompetence, not so much evil, DEA ~ever (which is lulzy because a lot of USG people at FBI and in LEOs in general moved from counterdrug to CT post-9/11), and while I think NSA pre-Snowden was quite defensible (and, indeed, honorable), I could imagine someone joining NSA today being viewed differently in a few years than someone who joined before.

Re: NSA revelations could hurt collaboration with 'betrayed' hackers

#83

Post by tptacek »

krek wrote: post #81
tptacek wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New Yorker: Pilot tests of ThinThread proved almost too successful, according to a former intelligence expert who analyzed it. “It was nearly perfect,” the official says. “But it processed such a large amount of data that it picked up more Americans than the other systems.” Though ThinThread was intended to intercept foreign communications, it continued documenting signals when a trail crossed into the U.S. This was…

The New Yorker's Mayer is paraphrasing an anonymous source, which she then counter-points in the very next sentence of the article with a quote from NSA historian Matthew Aid, who says: “The resistance to ThinThread was just standard bureaucratic politics. ThinThread was small, cost-effective, easy to understand, and protected the identity of Americans.” [1] That's what Binney and Drake have said all along. [1] http:…

I think if you read my comments you'll find that I'm not denying that ThinThread had a goal of protecting the identity of Americans. The problem is that the collections programs underpinning PRISM and XKEYSCORE also have that goal. The problem isn't the technology.

Re: NSA revelations could hurt collaboration with 'betrayed' hackers

#84

Post by dmd »

smtddr wrote: post #58
seiji wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Math is math Physics is physics. We all know time is fixed, the universe has been around forever, and atoms are the smallest indivisible component of matter. The world, under the guise of "everybody is created equal," has fallen under the spell of "everybody has the same intellectual capacity" (which is clearly wrong). Yahoo isn't paying a high school dropout $100 million + $80 million because of his snazzy FU-my-mom…

> The world, under the guise of "everybody is created equal," has fallen under the spell of "everybody has the same intellectual capacity" (which is clearly wrong). Yahoo isn't paying a high school dropout $100 million + $80 million because of his snazzy FU-my-mom-dresses-me haircut — they're paying him that because he's different. He's better. He's done more in five years than you've done in 20. You can't train that…

> I do believe that all healthy human beings do have the same potential for the amount of knowledge they can consume, at least at birth

This makes no sense whatsoever. Do you really believe that while people have genetics that control their skin color, hair color, susceptibility to various diseases, etc., etc., etc., somehow the brain is some magic non-biological organ that is not built by DNA?

Re: NSA revelations could hurt collaboration with 'betrayed' hackers

#85

Post by zeckalpha »

coldcode wrote: post #12

We really need to out and shame any engineer or contracting agency working for the NSA. If they can't hire anyone they can't spy on anyone.

Assuming sane people would respond to this criticism by leaving, what would be left with? As with any institution, perhaps it is better to have sane people working there, trying to change it from the inside.

Re: NSA revelations could hurt collaboration with 'betrayed' hackers

#86

Post by danielweber »

walshemj wrote: post #35
Ygg2 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If their friends, condemned their actions i.e. working for a bunch of incompetent, paranoid spooks, their job outlook would change as well.

How would their friends know you you are working for the NSA? Shurly you sign the official secrets act (the US version of it) at the interview stage and have an agreed cover story for your referees.

NSA has both overt and covert employees.

Re: NSA revelations could hurt collaboration with 'betrayed' hackers

#87

Post by smtddr »

dmd wrote: post #84
smtddr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The world, under the guise of "everybody is created equal," has fallen under the spell of "everybody has the same intellectual capacity" (which is clearly wrong). Yahoo isn't paying a high school dropout $100 million + $80 million because of his snazzy FU-my-mom-dresses-me haircut — they're paying him that because he's different. He's better. He's done more in five years than you've done in 20. You can't train that…

> I do believe that all healthy human beings do have the same potential for the amount of knowledge they can consume, at least at birth This makes no sense whatsoever. Do you really believe that while people have genetics that control their skin color, hair color, susceptibility to various diseases, etc., etc., etc., somehow the brain is some magic non-biological organ that is not built by DNA?

Ok, let me put it another way. If there is a variation for the amount of knowledge the brain can consume from human to human, assuming they're "healthy", it's gonna be something like Infinity x 99, infinity x 8, Infinity / 2. Whatever it is, it'll be a limit that's way beyond what a human being could ever reach in a lifetime.

Re: NSA revelations could hurt collaboration with 'betrayed' hackers

#88

Post by dmd »

smtddr wrote: post #87
dmd wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do believe that all healthy human beings do have the same potential for the amount of knowledge they can consume, at least at birth This makes no sense whatsoever. Do you really believe that while people have genetics that control their skin color, hair color, susceptibility to various diseases, etc., etc., etc., somehow the brain is some magic non-biological organ that is not built by DNA?

Ok, let me put it another way. If there is a variation for the amount of knowledge the brain can consume from human to human, assuming they're "healthy", it's gonna be something like Infinity x 99, infinity x 8, Infinity / 2. Whatever it is, it'll be a limit that's way beyond what a human being could ever reach in a lifetime.

So you don't believe that there's a spectrum of disability? You're either intellectually disabled to the point of not being able to dress yourself... or you're a potential Einstein - nothing in between?

Re: NSA revelations could hurt collaboration with 'betrayed' hackers

#89

Post by freyr »

smtddr wrote: post #58
seiji wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Math is math Physics is physics. We all know time is fixed, the universe has been around forever, and atoms are the smallest indivisible component of matter. The world, under the guise of "everybody is created equal," has fallen under the spell of "everybody has the same intellectual capacity" (which is clearly wrong). Yahoo isn't paying a high school dropout $100 million + $80 million because of his snazzy FU-my-mom…

> The world, under the guise of "everybody is created equal," has fallen under the spell of "everybody has the same intellectual capacity" (which is clearly wrong). Yahoo isn't paying a high school dropout $100 million + $80 million because of his snazzy FU-my-mom-dresses-me haircut — they're paying him that because he's different. He's better. He's done more in five years than you've done in 20. You can't train that…

I do believe that all healthy human beings do have the same potential for the amount of knowledge they can consume

Nope.

There are a lot of non-intelligent people out there. No matter how hard they try, they're not going to be theoretical physicists. If you think these people have the potential, but they're just not trying hard enough, that's an extremely bizarre view of the reality of their existence.

You're right though that David Karp's $180M payout is, in part, a product of luck and forces beyond his control.

According to probability, Karp probably is better at most things than a random person on HN. But is he better because of his $180M payout? Karp experienced a unique set of circumstances beyond his control (as each of us do) and none of his life experiences prevented him from reaching this payout (extremely lucky).

No doubt, his success and achievements suggest he is smart, hardworking, dedicated, etc. But another person, twice as smart, twice as hardworking, twice as dedicated, is affected daily by a totally different series of external events beyond his control, any one of which might preclude him from realizing the scenario where he gets a $180M payout.

And, some people choose paths in science/engineering/software/anything that preclude the possibility of a $180M payout. The researcher toiling in a lab to push forward the boundaries of human knowledge and achievement is most likely going to earn a modest salary his entire life (modest, at least, relative to Karp's). Is he worse in any way because he didn't create a microblogging platform that existed at the right place at the right time? Of course not.

Re: NSA revelations could hurt collaboration with 'betrayed' hackers

#90

Post by saraid216 »

smtddr wrote: post #87
dmd wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do believe that all healthy human beings do have the same potential for the amount of knowledge they can consume, at least at birth This makes no sense whatsoever. Do you really believe that while people have genetics that control their skin color, hair color, susceptibility to various diseases, etc., etc., etc., somehow the brain is some magic non-biological organ that is not built by DNA?

Ok, let me put it another way. If there is a variation for the amount of knowledge the brain can consume from human to human, assuming they're "healthy", it's gonna be something like Infinity x 99, infinity x 8, Infinity / 2. Whatever it is, it'll be a limit that's way beyond what a human being could ever reach in a lifetime.

Optimism is good, but at this point, you're driving past believing in the intrinsic awesome of human beings into the territory of magical thinking.

"Amount of knowledge" isn't a useful metric, as anyone in pedagogy can tell you. It's not even about "healthiness", which is meaningless, or disability, which is less meaningless. Brains are not hard disks. They aren't knowledge storage machines. That's just one of its minor functions.

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